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#21
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Mike wrote:
I've read the term ground loop in a lot of articles and accident reports but what exactly is a ground loop? Go to AvWeb. Under COLUMNS, select the index for John Deakins columns. Look for the article on Edwards AFB Flight Testing. Deakins gave instruction in a T-6 Texan (the original) to test pilot candidates. At the end of the lesson, he describes how he set them up for a ground loop. |
#22
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Somebody answered in here somewhere that the inside wing
would try to hit the ground because the outside wing would be generating more lift... Normally, the centrifical force tends to tip the plane to the outside of the loop... I've done 3 so far and have always pushed the stick to the inside of the loop to try to keep the outside tip from dragging... So far the technique has saved the wings.... John Price CFII/AGI/IGI http://home.att.net/~jm.price "Maule Driver" wrote in message . com... "BTIZ" wrote in message news:g03Ta.12456$Je.2196@fed1read04... also when the "loop" starts, it is normally started by a gust of wind on the tail, or a lifting of a wing, if the feet are not happy, but behind the movement to corral the tail, the tail will come on around, the wing on the "outside" of the turn will move faster, create more lift, thus lifting and possibly dragging the inside wing tip on the ground, plus the added side loads on the gear main tend to cause one to fold.. Does the inside or outside wing tend to hit the ground once a ground loop is underway? I've only done them in gliders (on purpose and by accident off-field) but that's the result of dragging the (inside) wingtip. My sense is that the outside wing wants to drag the ground after the groundloop gets going. But I just don't know. I'd rather land in some cross wind, then none at all, at least then you'll know where the trouble could be lurking... and forget tail wind landings.. not good at all.. I gotta admit, I've never wished for any xwind! You know what you have when it is a tail wind on both ends of the runway? A thermal at mid field.. plan to land long, get past the tailwind, through the thermal and into the headwind.. for a better controlled landing. I suspect that only a glider guider would be savvy enough to recognize this condition in time to respond! |
#23
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john price wrote: I've done 3 so far ..... If I'da known that, I would *never* have let you try that landing during my BFR! George Patterson The optimist feels that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist is afraid that he's correct. James Branch Cavel |
#24
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I like the rear engine analogy. Difference between the Beetle and the Corvair seems to have been that the Beetle didn't suffer from 'ground loops' very frequently. The Corvair was looking for them. My father owned I live in New Hampshire, where it not only snows, but often rains on top of the snow. I followed two gal skiers in a VW one time on the road down from the mountains, and they began to oscillate, overcorrect, and finally end up in the snowbank on the wrong side of the road. I dug them out with the shovel I always carried in the front trunk of my VW. Then, going around an extended traffic circle in Alton, I too went off the road that same night. A plow truck pulled me out. 3 or 4 of them. In #3, we did the classic Corvair 'ground loop' plus some. I'm not sure to this day how many times we went around but I do know we ended up upside down on the convertible roof. Unsafe at any speed indeed! Driving home from Vermont in a friend's Corvair, me driving, I could feel the front end move out from under me about every five minutes. I was passed three times, and in every case the car that passed me wound up in an accident a few miles farther along. In that case the Corvair got home and they didn't, because of that early-warning system of "black ice" on the road. The Vdub bus seems to be immune too. Drove 3 of them in western PA snows and never had them try to swap ends. Passed a lot of stuck people too. But of course, they were one of the most lethal vehicles on the road. They weren't in a lot of accidents, but you stood a good chance of buying it if when they were. Gosh, I had one of those, too. You're right; it never seemed to suffer from understeer, perhaps because the passenger and the driver were sitting on top of the front axle! As I recall the shoulder belt didn't have an inertia reel, and if it was secured you couldn't reach the instrument panel. So I cut mine off. My wife and I drove to California and back, sitting out there on the front axle, with our daughter in a basket between the two seats. Yikes. all the best -- Dan Ford email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9 see the Warbird's Forum at http://www.danford.net/index.htm Vietnam | Flying Tigers | Pacific War | Brewster Buffalo | Piper Cub |
#25
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In the Olden Days, when aircraft didn't have brakes and you just landed in any convenient field, groundlooping was how they stopped. In an emergency, it may be a better choice than hitting something hard and/or expensive. This is still standard procedure on the ice runway at Alton Bay, New Hampshire, supposedly the only American airport that is a seaplane base in the summer and a land airport in the winter. I'm told that it is also standard procedure to **** on your tires to freeze them to the ice, chocks not being very useful in that circumstance. I haven;t tried this myself; first I was too timid, then the bay didn't freeze, and most recently I couldn't get out of Hampton for nearly three months because of snow, ice, wind, and mud. all the best -- Dan Ford email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9 see the Warbird's Forum at http://www.danford.net/index.htm Vietnam | Flying Tigers | Pacific War | Brewster Buffalo | Piper Cub |
#26
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Be careful, though. In some low-legged airplanes lowering the aileron just puts
the airfoil even closer to the ground. In my Pitts Special (assuming no crosswind correction) it was best to keep the stick neutral if the rear end got really loose. Never did ground loop it, although god knows I must have come close a few times. -Ryan CFI/MEI/CFI-H john price wrote: Somebody answered in here somewhere that the inside wing would try to hit the ground because the outside wing would be generating more lift... Normally, the centrifical force tends to tip the plane to the outside of the loop... I've done 3 so far and have always pushed the stick to the inside of the loop to try to keep the outside tip from dragging... So far the technique has saved the wings.... John Price CFII/AGI/IGI http://home.att.net/~jm.price "Maule Driver" wrote in message . com... "BTIZ" wrote in message news:g03Ta.12456$Je.2196@fed1read04... also when the "loop" starts, it is normally started by a gust of wind on the tail, or a lifting of a wing, if the feet are not happy, but behind the movement to corral the tail, the tail will come on around, the wing on the "outside" of the turn will move faster, create more lift, thus lifting and possibly dragging the inside wing tip on the ground, plus the added side loads on the gear main tend to cause one to fold.. Does the inside or outside wing tend to hit the ground once a ground loop is underway? I've only done them in gliders (on purpose and by accident off-field) but that's the result of dragging the (inside) wingtip. My sense is that the outside wing wants to drag the ground after the groundloop gets going. But I just don't know. I'd rather land in some cross wind, then none at all, at least then you'll know where the trouble could be lurking... and forget tail wind landings.. not good at all.. I gotta admit, I've never wished for any xwind! You know what you have when it is a tail wind on both ends of the runway? A thermal at mid field.. plan to land long, get past the tailwind, through the thermal and into the headwind.. for a better controlled landing. I suspect that only a glider guider would be savvy enough to recognize this condition in time to respond! |
#27
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Cub Driver wrote:
I'm told that it is also standard procedure to **** on your tires to freeze them to the ice, chocks not being very useful in that circumstance. I haven;t tried this myself; first I was too timid, then the bay didn't freeze, and most recently I couldn't get out of Hampton for nearly three months because of snow, ice, wind, and mud. Hmmm... brings a whole new meaning to the saying "old pilots and bold pilots". ;-) |
#28
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Is there a connection between VDubs, Cubs, and Maules?
"Cub Driver" wrote in message ... snippety snip Driving home from Vermont in a friend's Corvair, me driving, I could feel the front end move out from under me about every five minutes. I was passed three times, and in every case the car that passed me wound up in an accident a few miles farther along. In that case the Corvair got home and they didn't, because of that early-warning system of "black ice" on the road. ahhhh, that's what it was, an early warning system. A quick swat to back of the head would have sufficed. Gosh, I had one of those, too. You're right; it never seemed to suffer from understeer, perhaps because the passenger and the driver were sitting on top of the front axle! As I recall the shoulder belt didn't have an inertia reel, and if it was secured you couldn't reach the instrument panel. So I cut mine off. I kind of figured it was non-inertial so that you would be held firmly in place during a head-on coup de grace. Should have cut it off too. What did you do for heat? Not much there when new. Less in a couple of years of salt corrosion. Auxiliary gas heater was great if you added it. Almost died in mine due to lack of heat but that's another long story. My wife and I drove to California and back, sitting out there on the front axle, with our daughter in a basket between the two seats. Yikes. I ripped the seats, installed speakers, curtains, and a big bean bag chair. I otherwise take the 5th. We were all young and foolish once.... but sure had fun! |
#29
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.... and in a glider, stuff the stick forward and stay on the brakes to avoid
snapping the tail. "BTIZ" wrote in message news:_dkTa.12831$Je.318@fed1read04... the outside wing will hit... with our Pawnee, the inside wing can drag.. and then as you "high side" (motorcycle talk) the outside wing can contact the ground.. or if you've ever rolled a jeep when you get it side ways.. |
#30
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In article , john smith
writes A ground loop is what happens when a taildragger pilot isn't fast enough on the rudder pedals to keep the tail from passing him/her while going down the runway. Because the center of gravity is behind the main landing gear on a taildragger, the tail of the airplane wants to swing around to the front. The center of gravity is forward of the main gear on a tricycle gear airplane, so the nose wants to stay out in front. It seems to me that this explanation, though common, is oversimplified. What we are talking about is stability. When an aircraft (or a car for that matter) turns on the ground a sideways force is developed on the wheels. There is also a force generated by the sideways acceleration at the cg and, also, in the case of the aircraft, a side aerodynamic force. If the combined reaction of the first two is behind the cg than the yaw motion on the ground will be unstable and may or may not be able to be controlled by the pilot with the rudder. It is not that the main wheels are in front of the cg so much as that the side force developed by the tail wheel is very small (even smaller if it is a castoring tail wheel) and too much of the side ground force will be developed by the 'main' wheels. You only need to be fast on the rudder because the position is unstable. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- David Francis E-Mail reply to ----------------------------------------------------------- |
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