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#21
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Towpilot fatality in Oregon
Agree in general, but chances are that some readers on RAS know the
facts and can share with us much faster than the NTSB will, and indeed that seems to be the case here. We all take it personally when one of us get killed, and want to know why. Thanks to all who contributed. Ramy On Aug 28, 5:48*pm, Scott wrote: Ramy wrote: I expected someone will come up sooner or later with the lame request to wait for the "official accident report". It is comments like this which often prevent useful discussions about accidents and how to prevent them. I for one learned much more about accidents from RAS then from "official accident reports". Are you referring to the usually useless NTSB reports, or to accident reports in the soaring magazine which may take months or years to come if at all? We had too many fatalities this year yet I don't recall seeing any "official accident reports". Meanwhile more could die from the same reasons. I'm with Kirk and also hope that if something will ever happen to me people will discuss it right away and try to learn from it. Ramy Just to play devil's advocate...what can be learned from "what ifs"? If I weren't there to physically witness the accident, I might as well say the engine quit and someone made a 180 degree turn to return to the field and spun in. *What is learned by that? *Especially if the real cause was something such as a forgotten bolt or pin, causing the wing to fold. I myself prefer to wait for an investigation where there are at least some preliminary FACTS. *That's just the way I work, I guess..... Scott - Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - |
#22
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Towpilot fatality in Oregon
On Aug 28, 9:07*pm, Ramy wrote:
Agree in general, but chances are that some readers on RAS know the facts and can share with us much faster than the NTSB will, and indeed that seems to be the case here. We all take it personally when one of us get killed, and want to know why. Thanks to all who contributed. Ramy On Aug 28, 5:48*pm, Scott wrote: Ramy wrote: I expected someone will come up sooner or later with the lame request to wait for the "official accident report". It is comments like this which often prevent useful discussions about accidents and how to prevent them. I for one learned much more about accidents from RAS then from "official accident reports". Are you referring to the usually useless NTSB reports, or to accident reports in the soaring magazine which may take months or years to come if at all? We had too many fatalities this year yet I don't recall seeing any "official accident reports". Meanwhile more could die from the same reasons. I'm with Kirk and also hope that if something will ever happen to me people will discuss it right away and try to learn from it. Ramy Just to play devil's advocate...what can be learned from "what ifs"? If I weren't there to physically witness the accident, I might as well say the engine quit and someone made a 180 degree turn to return to the field and spun in. *What is learned by that? *Especially if the real cause was something such as a forgotten bolt or pin, causing the wing to fold. I myself prefer to wait for an investigation where there are at least some preliminary FACTS. *That's just the way I work, I guess..... Scott - Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Details on an accident may come out early, others may come out years later and never be part of the official record. I know of at least two here in Colorado that are rather different than the official findings. Can't fault the investigators as the information just wasn't available to them at the time of the investigations. |
#23
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Towpilot fatality in Oregon
Eric Greenwell wrote:
Scott wrote: Ramy wrote: I'm with Kirk and also hope that if something will ever happen to me people will discuss it right away and try to learn from it. Ramy Just to play devil's advocate...what can be learned from "what ifs"? If I weren't there to physically witness the accident, I might as well say the engine quit and someone made a 180 degree turn to return to the field and spun in. What is learned by that? Especially if the real cause was something such as a forgotten bolt or pin, causing the wing to fold. I myself prefer to wait for an investigation where there are at least some preliminary FACTS. That's just the way I work, I guess..... We have some preliminary facts: Pawnee, crash, fatality, glider OK, Creswell, Oregon, etc. How long do you want to wait for more facts? How many facts do you need? My experience is we often don't have "enough" facts to conclusively understand an accident, even the year or so later when NTSB report is issued. RAS isn't a court of law trying to issue a fair judgment. We don't need "all the facts" to have discussions that leaven the pain of losing a fellow pilot, or goad us into rethinking about what we do when get into our towplane or glider, and what we should be doing. That is just the way most of us work. Yes, you have said facts. Did the Pawnee lose a wing? Stall? Carb Ice? What is the lesson in a Pawnee that crashed in Oregon with a fatality, other vehicle OK, etc.? What lesson do you take away from this? Keep the wings on? Use carb heat? Fly the airplane? All good advice, but something we ordinarily do on every (normal) flight.... |
#24
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Towpilot fatality in Oregon
The basic facts are that someone (or more than one) screwed up. Be it the
pilot of the tow plane the glider pilot or the engineers. The basic cause is probably one we have seen many times before, speculation as to cause, pointing the finger of blame only add to the confusion. Experience shows that rumour becomes fact it also shows that no matter what happens we will get debate. Expecting witnesses to speak out before the enquiry is complete would in my opinion be wrong, what someone sees is not always the complete answer. Our sport is dangerous even more so if you do not take care with flying or maintainance. Heathly discussion is always helpful, especially to the new guys, but it is a matter of degrees and remembering that is what it is. In the event of a technical problem one would expect a bulletin me to be issued as soon as possible, in the event of a pilot screw up we will just have to sit and wait. We all know in todays climate of blame culture we have to be especially carefull about what we say and print -- but that should not stifle safety awareness. Just my thoughts Dave At 03:19 29 August 2009, Frank Whiteley wrote: On Aug 28, 9:07=A0pm, Ramy wrote: Agree in general, but chances are that some readers on RAS know the facts and can share with us much faster than the NTSB will, and indeed that seems to be the case here. We all take it personally when one of us get killed, and want to know why. Thanks to all who contributed. Ramy On Aug 28, 5:48=A0pm, Scott wrote: Ramy wrote: I expected someone will come up sooner or later with the lame request to wait for the "official accident report". It is comments like this which often prevent useful discussions about accidents and how to prevent them. I for one learned much more about accidents from RAS then from "official accident reports". Are you referring to the usually useless NTSB reports, or to accident reports in the soaring magazine which may take months or years to come if at all? We had too many fatalities this year yet I don't recall seeing any "official accident reports". Meanwhile more could die from the same reasons. I'm with Kirk and also hope that if something will ever happen to me people will discuss it right away and try to learn from it. Ramy Just to play devil's advocate...what can be learned from "what ifs"? If I weren't there to physically witness the accident, I might as well say the engine quit and someone made a 180 degree turn to return to the field and spun in. =A0What is learned by that? =A0Especially if the rea= l cause was something such as a forgotten bolt or pin, causing the wing t= o fold. I myself prefer to wait for an investigation where there are at least some preliminary FACTS. =A0That's just the way I work, I guess..... Scott - Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Details on an accident may come out early, others may come out years later and never be part of the official record. I know of at least two here in Colorado that are rather different than the official findings. Can't fault the investigators as the information just wasn't available to them at the time of the investigations. |
#25
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Towpilot fatality in Oregon
On Aug 29, 3:45*am, Dave Martin wrote:
The basic facts are that someone (or more than one) screwed up. *Be it the pilot of the tow plane the glider pilot or the engineers. The basic cause is probably one we have seen many times before, speculation as to cause, pointing the finger of blame only add to the confusion. * Experience shows that rumour becomes fact it also shows that no matter what happens we will get debate. Expecting witnesses to speak out before the enquiry is complete would in my opinion be wrong, what someone sees is not always the complete answer. Our sport is dangerous even more so if you do not take care with flying or maintainance. Heathly discussion is always helpful, especially to the new guys, but it is a matter of degrees and remembering that is what it is. In the event of a technical problem one would expect a bulletin me to be issued as soon as possible, in the event of a pilot screw up we will just have to sit and wait. We all know in todays climate of blame culture we have to be especially carefull about what we say and print -- but that should not stifle safety awareness. Just my thoughts Dave * At 03:19 29 August 2009, Frank Whiteley wrote: On Aug 28, 9:07=A0pm, Ramy *wrote: Agree in general, but chances are that some readers on RAS know the facts and can share with us much faster than the NTSB will, and indeed that seems to be the case here. We all take it personally when one of us get killed, and want to know why. Thanks to all who contributed. Ramy On Aug 28, 5:48=A0pm, Scott *wrote: Ramy wrote: I expected someone will come up sooner or later with the lame request to wait for the "official accident report". It is comments like this which often prevent useful discussions about accidents and how to prevent them. I for one learned much more about accidents from RAS then from "official accident reports". Are you referring to the usually useless NTSB reports, or to accident reports in the soaring magazine which may take months or years to come if at all? We had too many fatalities this year yet I don't recall seeing any "official accident reports". Meanwhile more could die from the same reasons. I'm with Kirk and also hope that if something will ever happen to me people will discuss it right away and try to learn from it. Ramy Just to play devil's advocate...what can be learned from "what ifs"? If I weren't there to physically witness the accident, I might as well say the engine quit and someone made a 180 degree turn to return to the field and spun in. =A0What is learned by that? =A0Especially if the rea= l cause was something such as a forgotten bolt or pin, causing the wing t= o fold. I myself prefer to wait for an investigation where there are at least some preliminary FACTS. =A0That's just the way I work, I guess...... Scott - Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Details on an accident may come out early, others may come out years later and never be part of the official record. *I know of at least two here in Colorado that are rather different than the official findings. *Can't fault the investigators as the information just wasn't available to them at the time of the investigations.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - There is just one more statement missing to complete the this thread for now. That should be coming from the pilot of the glider. What did he experienced to make him release? Bela |
#26
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Towpilot fatality in Oregon
The glider pilot is way too upset to say anything here. It was his second solo flight and he feels very bad, but it doesnot appear to have been caused by anything he did. The line got very slack so he released and returned to the runway. It seems that the tug had serious problems forcing him to land, not crash, in a field, which then caught fire . There are accounts from the ground that the plane sputtered and another of possible smoke or flames. In almost every plane crash you can find some one on the ground that heard the plane sputter though, even if it's a jet, but that's what we know at this point. I am obviously in favor of disseminating what information we have and I'm trying hard to keep from saying anything that would upset anyone involved. I think it is very important to talk about accidents. Way too many clubs and operations work to hide the accidents that happen at their sites, and I really disagree with that kind of attitude. We need to learn from our accidents and talk about them openly and be very careful to not make it difficult to talk about this by being nasty about it. If you don’t want to be involved, don’t read it. Gary Boggs 1309 16th St. Hood River, Oregon. 97031 www.nwskysports.com 503-708-8869 |
#27
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Towpilot fatality in Oregon
On Aug 28, 11:27*pm, "
wrote: some of us also fly Pawnee towplanes and have a certain interest in what happened. * not saying anything about the possible causes of an accident does not help those of us still practising the activity! First, forgive an input on this tragic event from “the other side of the pond”, but I am a towplane pilot, too. I appreciate that in the long term there will be a formal report, but in the short term it must be possible to say SOMETHING about the circumstances. If only to (probably) rule out some causes. This should not be difficult or embarrassing, if done sensibly. When I was in the military I was involved in quite a few inquiries into accidents. The RAF system is that the Board of Inquiry has to make a "48 hour report" of what is known at that time, and whether any immediate measures could be recommended at that early stage, to lessen risks to others. Early recommendations might include inspections, changes of components or to operating procedures, even "grounding" in extreme cases. The "48 hour report" does not compromise any long-term findings or recommendations, and the system works well. Turning to this tragic accident, in very general terms, what happened? That cannot be "secret", surely? In particular, what were the approximate flight paths of the towplane and also of the glider? That will indicate a lot, and rule out some causes such as structural failure (my club uses a 235hp Pawnee amongst others, so I have a definite interest!) A possible cause could be engine failure (full or partial, the latter often being more difficult to deal with), although landing straight ahead should not normally have fatal consequences. Did the towplane turn after releasing the glider? Someone must know. Also, with any towplane fatal I always wonder whether it was one of those "tug upsets" caused by the glider getting too high, pulling the tug tail up to the extent that the tailplane stalls, with consequent large loss of height to the tug. Many years ago in the UK we had some of these, and the BGA changed its instruction for aero tow and also for tug pilots. We have not had a "tug upset" on this side of the pond for some time, but tug pilots now watch the rear-view mirror much more carefully for the glider getting high, particularly near the ground. If so, the hand moves towards the release in case the glider pilot does not correct, and glider pilots are now taught to sit just above the towplane slipstream rather than higher, as in the past. There seems to be a dearth of basic information about what happened in this tragic case. Since the issue has been raised in this forum, it would be useful to use the same forum for other towplane pilots to know more. Ian Strachan Lasham Gliding Centre, UK |
#28
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Towpilot fatality in Oregon
I just put together and signed off as airworthy our Pawnee and am
being towed behind it with commercial ride passengers. I want all the info I can get to perform my tasks to the best of my ability. thank you, Haven |
#29
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Towpilot fatality in Oregon
Ian Strachan wrote:
On Aug 28, 11:27 pm, " wrote: some of us also fly Pawnee towplanes and have a certain interest in what happened. This may already be known to you, and it may have nothing to do with this accident, but it appears that Pawnees have been built with three different types of fuel tanks, with one type accounting for a disproportionate share of post-crash fires. In 1987 the U.S. NTSB issued the following recommendation to Piper Aircraft regarding the higher incidence of post-crash fire fatalities of those aircraft having a fiberglass fuel tank: http://www.ntsb.gov/Recs/letters/1987/A87_100.pdf The accident aircraft had a serial number of 25-468, so if the NTSB recommendation was not followed for that aircraft and it still had the same tank, it may have had a fiberglass fuel tank and therefore among the group showing the highest percentage of fatalities and injuries due to post-crash fires. Turning to this tragic accident, in very general terms, what happened? That cannot be "secret", surely? Gary Boggs' posts have the most pertinent information. Also, see news video link I include below. In particular, what were the approximate flight paths of the towplane and also of the glider? That will indicate a lot, and rule out some causes such as structural failure (my club uses a 235hp Pawnee amongst others, so I have a definite interest!) A possible cause could be engine failure (full or partial, the latter often being more difficult to deal with), although landing straight ahead should not normally have fatal consequences. Did the towplane turn after releasing the glider? Someone must know. The towplane landed approximately straight ahead into a field at the north end of the runway. There is a local TV news video at the following URL, and in it they have a shot from a helicopter where you can see the area of blackend burned grass where he landed at about 1:28 into the video: http://kezi.com/news/local/138834 Here's a Google map link of the airport: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie...66047&t=h&z=15 |
#30
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Towpilot fatality in Oregon
Jim Logajan wrote:
[...] but it appears that Pawnees have been built with three different types of fuel tanks, with one type accounting for a disproportionate share of post-crash fires. Sorry - meant to end the sentence with "post-crash fire fatalities." |
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