Allow me to share today's activities

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 10:26:51 -0800, "Holger Stephan"
wrote:

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 08:03:51 +0000, - Barnyard BOb - wrote:
ONCE AGAIN???

What are you smoking, Holger?????
RAH has NEVER ACCEPTED ANY SUCH RULES as long as I've been here from any
Net Nazis.

It is not at all about Net Nazi rules or to restrict free speech. And I
have yet to see an Internet discussion group (be it on the newsnet or a
mailing list) with such a rude attitude from day 1. That is established by
a few who get a kick out of assaulting others. Then they find some
followers on that playground.

It doesn't have to be that way. RAH is really the most aggressive place on
the Internet I stop by regularly. I've heard from numerous others who
agree and a good part turned their back on RAH because of this.

You like it that way and it comes to no surprise you use displaced
references to the right of free speech and Net Nazis to defend your
habitat.

**** using my name? You had to know I would meet you eye to eye about
this latest turd of yours. I'm not much on pious bull**** and I don't
think others here generally are either. So.... Proceed at your own risk.

No, we're not meeting eye to eye, meaning in person, and that may be part
of the problem. We wouldn't be half as rude if this was a real discussion
in person.

BTW, what is that veterans talk about? It is not needed to respect you as
RAH member. Especially you with your vast aviation knowledge and your
excellently written postings that I do enjoy to read. At the same time you
are the archetype of notorious attacker, and that's why I referred to you
earlier.


- Holger


Holger, you speak the truth. The thing is, it did not use to be that
way here. Many years ago, this was a group where civil discourse
occured and disagreement was just that: a disagreement, not a personal
attack.

That all changed with the advent of a few guys who could not voice
their opinions without loosing the flames in incredibly derogatory
ways.

I don't remember now who was first, but Paul Lamar, Craig Wall and Jim
(Captain Zoom) Campbell kind of exploded onto the group in spectacular
fashion years ago and things have gone downhill ever since.

It's really too bad.

None of those guys post here anymore. Craig Wall was so vitriollic
that his access priveleges got snubbed, for a while, by his employer.
He came back a while later but apparently didn't like what he saw here
anymore so he stayed away.

Paul Lamar was nearly incoherently argumentative about the subject of
auto engine conversions. This is a man who worked as an engineer for
the Jim Hall Chaparal sports car team. A team that broke all kinds of
new ground for innovative car building. You'd think that a guy with
that kind of background would be the kind of guy who would be
intrigued by innovation in experimental aviation. But no. One of
Paul's more infamous predictions was that the V configuration produced
vibrations that would turn the cranshaft to dust within (fill in the
blank here for hours) time. I don't remember the figure, but I think
it was under 500. Of course that turned out to be a false
prognostication, as did his arguments that auto engines would never
ever be able to cool properly no matter how big a radiator you hung on
the frame. The cylinders were too close together, the passages too
small etc etc. These comments too, from the automotive engineer,
turned out to be false. Auto engines cool just fine with proper sized
radiators and proper airflow through them.

Paul eventually left the group, apparently convinced we were not worth
"saving". Ironically, he went on to form an e-mail group devoted to
the conversion of the Mazda Rotory engine to aircraft use. That
engine, he thought, held promise, unlike the piston engines.

And then there was Jim Campbell. I wish I had kept his original
posting to this group. It was so wierd it literally made my hair
stand on end. It was a rant about truth (whatever that was, because
he didn't exactly say) in the tone of a religious fanatic. I
dismissed it immediately because it was obviously not from earth.
Others dismissed him publically in this group and paid the price when
he attacked them with the threat of lawsuits. That was before people
who know him posted information to the effect that he was a blowhard
and none of his lawsuits based on what people said in this group would
stand up in court.

They were right.

But now RAH was gripped with a malaise of bitter attacks and counter
attacks that escalated to the point where it was hardly worth logging
on anymore, there was so much erupting going on. It was actually
depressing. Jim finally left, although I suspect he keeps an eye on
things.

With his departure though, the sun did not come out and warm us all
up. By then, people had gotten spurred so often, they kept up the
regime of personal attacks. Anyone blundering in with an innocent
question was often savaged with flames and accusations, never to be
seen again.

At some point Bill Phillips appeared and introduced himself with a
number of really good essays and comments. Then something happened to
him and he began a series of personal attacks that he claimed he did
just for the fun of it. He was retired and spent a lot of time here
and as the attacks became more vicious, people responded in kind.

At the risk of raising BOb's ire yet again, he is one of those persons
who seemed to learn to fight here at the end of a short chain. There
are times when a newbie shows up here with a question that would seem
a juicy target for a BOb barb, and he treats him gently. But most of
the time he is as you see him, lashing out at those he disagrees with.

I believe there is a lot of interesting information available in this
group. Over the years I've copied and brought home many many pages of
replies and information.

You can take the high road and respond to those who appear so out of
control in a courteous manner without attacking the man behind the
words. Or you can take another road and just ignor him. A fire
without fuel eventually dies.

I do feel badly for those who lurk but do not enter for fear of being
blasted by the few who consider it their right and duty comment with a
flamethrower.

Corky Scott

First, Bob Urban posts his "free speech" rant...

Bla bla bla...
In case you haven't noticed, I've never even
remotely hinted about how you or anyone else
here should practice FREE SPEECH. Please
allow me the same freedom. It is my right as well
as yours and protected by the US Constitution.

and then he follows it with a hypocritical ultimatum that directly
contradicts the lofty precepts he just invoked...

Once again, Holger...
Get your head right or **** off.

Obviously, "free speech" is fine and dandy in RAH as long as such
speech doesn't criticize poor behavior. In Urban's twisted little
world, it is perfectly OK for him to tell others to "get your head
right or **** off" -- which is strangely reminiscent of an Orwellian
Ministry Of Truth edict -- but it is not OK for others to tell him to
do the same or to even appeal for better behavior from all. Very
hypocritical indeed.

Reasonable people understand that while "free speech" includes a
limited right to publicly mouth-off with juvenile vitriol, it also
includes a limited right to publicly chide others for poor behavior
and a right to ask for better behavior from all. Only a fool would
characterize the latter as an attack upon free speech. Holger was
correct in his assessment, this newsgroup is much the poorer because
of the juvenile antics of a handful of socially maladjusted posters.

Gig Giacona wrote:

You must not get out much. RAH is a nursery school compared to
alt.folklore.urban

Well, the grammar and spelling is...erm...are better there. And to truly
be insulted you have to learn a lot of the background. But yeah, it's a
snake pit.

Ben "TWIAVBP" Sego

"Gig Giacona" wrote:


"Holger Stephan" wrote in message It doesn't
have to be that way. RAH is really the most aggressive place on
the Internet I stop by regularly. I've heard from numerous others who
agree and a good part turned their back on RAH because of this.

You must not get out much. RAH is a nursery school compared to
alt.folklore.urban
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Dead on, Gig.
It's comforting to know that folks like you exist
to balance out some of the...... 'Holger' flakes.


Barnyard BOb 'Urban' - supply your own legend

"Ben Sego" wrote in message
...


Gig Giacona wrote:

You must not get out much. RAH is a nursery school compared to
alt.folklore.urban

Well, the grammar and spelling is...erm...are better there. And to
truly
be insulted you have to learn a lot of the background. But yeah,
it's a
snake pit.


Pilots generally don't take any bull****, that what I like about this
snake pit, straight talking from most. There are a few who simply
arn't worth the read.
--
---
Cheers,
Jonathan Lowe.
/
don't bother me with insignificiant nonsence such as spelling,
I don't care if it spelt properly
/
Sometimes I fly and sometimes I just dream about it.
:-)


Ben "TWIAVBP" Sego

On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 00:10:31 -0600, - Barnyard BOb -
wrote:


"Gig Giacona" wrote:


"Holger Stephan" wrote in message It doesn't
have to be that way. RAH is really the most aggressive place on
the Internet I stop by regularly. I've heard from numerous others who
agree and a good part turned their back on RAH because of this.

You must not get out much. RAH is a nursery school compared to
alt.folklore.urban
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Dead on, Gig.
It's comforting to know that folks like you exist
to balance out some of the...... 'Holger' flakes.

Try alt.activism.noise.polution :-)) for fobias.

Roger (K8RI)


Barnyard BOb 'Urban' - supply your own legend

Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)

BOb's call for "free speech" is code for "any vulgarity, profanity, or
defamation statement is acceptable and how dare you complain about it."
True "free speech," an exchange of ideas and discussion of points of
difference, is not what BOb has espouse for years. BOb's liberal
attitude is that "everyone must be allowed to do or say anything they
want as long as it doesn't contradict my opinions." One cannot expect
such a person to admit of even slightly care about the depth of his
hypocrisy.

Free Speech Watch wrote:

First, Bob Urban posts his "free speech" rant...

Bla bla bla...
In case you haven't noticed, I've never even
remotely hinted about how you or anyone else
here should practice FREE SPEECH. Please
allow me the same freedom. It is my right as well
as yours and protected by the US Constitution.

and then he follows it with a hypocritical ultimatum that directly
contradicts the lofty precepts he just invoked...

Once again, Holger...
Get your head right or **** off.

Obviously, "free speech" is fine and dandy in RAH as long as such
speech doesn't criticize poor behavior. In Urban's twisted little
world, it is perfectly OK for him to tell others to "get your head
right or **** off" -- which is strangely reminiscent of an Orwellian
Ministry Of Truth edict -- but it is not OK for others to tell him to
do the same or to even appeal for better behavior from all. Very
hypocritical indeed.

Reasonable people understand that while "free speech" includes a
limited right to publicly mouth-off with juvenile vitriol, it also
includes a limited right to publicly chide others for poor behavior
and a right to ask for better behavior from all. Only a fool would
characterize the latter as an attack upon free speech. Holger was
correct in his assessment, this newsgroup is much the poorer because
of the juvenile antics of a handful of socially maladjusted posters.

--
Bruce A. Frank

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 18:24:20 -0500, Free Speech Watch
wrote:


characterize the latter as an attack upon free speech. Holger was
correct in his assessment, this newsgroup is much the poorer because
of the juvenile antics of a handful of socially maladjusted posters.


seeing how to handle such maladjustment is a valuable lesson for some
who may otherwise encounter it in the general community without
adequate preparation.

in imposition of wills situations I still think that the sagest advise
came from W.C.Fields the comedian. "never argue with a fool."

Stealth (there is good in everyone ...sometimes) Pilot

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 23:53:05 GMT, "Bruce A. Frank"
wrote:

BOb's call for "free speech" is code for "any vulgarity, profanity, or
defamation statement is acceptable and how dare you complain about it."
True "free speech," an exchange of ideas and discussion of points of
difference, is not what BOb has espouse for years. BOb's liberal
attitude is that "everyone must be allowed to do or say anything they
want as long as it doesn't contradict my opinions." One cannot expect
such a person to admit of even slightly care about the depth of his
hypocrisy.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Why is it your ilk is COMPELLED to explain me,
define me and interpret whatever I have to say?
Don't you believe others can think for themselves?
'Do gooders' like you are the biggest threat and danger
to a free society there ever was.

Your compulsions, frothings and paranoia are not limited
to RAH. Seems you are a man hell bent on a mission,
tainting my personal mailbox with your brand of hype
and fears. Chill out, Bruce. The only enemy I see is
within yourself. Take a chill pill and maybe a vacation.
If that is not do-able....

Carry on with your dastardly distortions, shadings and defamations
of me. You are speaking to your choir boys and few else. I can't
imagine anyone who takes your point of view seriously, ever sees
my posts. Surely, I've been long filtered out. Do likewise and save
yourself a lot of angst, hearburn and elevated blood pressure.

AFAIK.....
Your expertise is welding.
Mine is more than five decades of flying.
It is no accident that I don't challenge your welding.
Yet, you have no problems butting heads with me
in almost every area you have little experience in.
Ignorance, like yours, obviously is no accident.
AND, I believe that makes you a serious flying accident
going somewhere to happen, Bruce. Get your project
in the air and prove me wrong. Until then, you are just
another loudmouth cut from cloth similar to jaun's.....
just slicker and smoooother around the edges.

Barnyard BOb -- 50 years of successful flight

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 16:20:57 +0800, Stealth Pilot wrote:

seeing how to handle such maladjustment is a valuable lesson for some
who may otherwise encounter it in the general community without adequate
preparation.

in imposition of wills situations I still think that the sagest advise
came from W.C.Fields the comedian. "never argue with a fool."

Education for how to deal with fools in real life? Is this what we need
RAH for?

We've seen the accident rates Ron Wanttaja posted. Whatever the causes
are, building and flying experimental planes is taking a high toll on our
group. You may say that is Darwin at work, purging us from the idiots. But
there are almost always families involved, and it makes a bad impression
on those who have little interest in keeping the skies open for idiots.
And it makes finding adequate insurance a challenge.

We all know how the information exchange is essential to keep us from
being the next idiot. RAH is the main international non-type specific
experimental aircraft discussion forum.

Unfortunately, we don't use it to its potential because the prevailing
attitude here has been driving a good number away and keeps others mute.
It would do our group good to invite as many as possible to our
discussions. The ones who can give advise and the ones who desperately
need it. Latter may ruin our next insurance quote otherwise.

- Holger

PS: I don't have anything against stronger language in the mids of a
heated discussion. A while ago I defended BOb's position and attitude in
the auto conversion controversy in the Bearhawk group (didn't do it for
you, BOb, but to argue for the position and motivation). Sometimes it is
just a matter of temperament. But that wealth of bashing here just to
bash, with no connection to any technical discussion, is just pathetic
barking behind the save fence of the anonymous Internet.