Would you cycle the gear?

Richard Kaplan ) wrote:

: And even in the airline world, there is a Capt. Haynes who made a landing
: in South Dakota a number of years ago who probably agrees as well that
: independent thinking by an airline pilot is a good thing.
:

You're thinking of United Flight 232, a DC-10 whose #2 engine failed
taking out all three hydraulic systems; the plane crashed in Sioux City,
Iowa:

http://www.airdisaster.com/special/special-ua232.shtml
AirDisaster.Com: Special Report: United Airlines Flight 232

--Jerry Leslie
Note: is invalid for email

"Richard Kaplan" wrote in message
s.com...

Consider that airlines have a LOT more established emergency procedures
and
a lot more equipment redundancy, so whereas you might be correct that in
an
airline situation there is a proper checklist for almost every situation,
in
piston general aviation the pilot may need to do more independent thinking
to solve a problem. And even in the airline world, there is a Capt.
Haynes
who made a landing in South Dakota a number of years ago who probably
agrees
as well that independent thinking by an airline pilot is a good thing.

You might be suprised Richard. I fly a relatively new design, all glass,
fully automated airliner. Out of all of the 'issues' I have had with this
aircraft, probably only 10% of them were actually corrected solely via an
Emerg/Abnormal checklist. Oftentimes, the problem is a little more compound
in nature and improvisation is definitely necessary and in fact encouraged.

As the old saying goes ... checklists are CHECKlists, not DOlists.

-RH

"Capt. Wild Bill Kelso, USAAC" wrote in message
...

I can tell you that if you were given that problem on a checkride, sim or
airplane, you prob. wouldn't have passed. Procedures were developed and
tested
by manufacturers. Yes, as PIC you have the authority to decide NOT to
follow
Emergency Procedures, but you will have to explain that to the Check
Airman/Examiner/Fed. In the airlines, we follow the QRH(Quick Reference
Handbook). If it says cycle the gear, we cycle the gear. If it doesn't
lock
down, we retract and hit the Emerg.. Extension Switch and let it
free-fall. If
it still doesn't work, we plan for a one, two, or all-wheels up landing.

What did the Fed say when you told him you didn't follow the checklist?

True enough, however, in an emergency situation, we may deviate from any
procedure, as necessary, to meet the given needs of the emergency.

I'm an airline driver too and page 1 of our AOM-1 (that's our aircraft
flight manual) specifically states that all of the given procedures may not
adequately address each and every problem we may encounter. It goes on to
say that we can utilize experience and judgement if/when we decide to
deviate from a procedure or expand upon one.

In the end, checklists are not all encompassing and sometimes we have to use
some of that 'pilot sh**' to save the day.

-RH

"Ryan R. Healy" wrote in message
...

I'm an airline driver too and page 1 of our AOM-1 (that's our aircraft
flight manual) specifically states that all of the given procedures may
not
adequately address each and every problem we may encounter. It goes on to
say that we can utilize experience and judgement if/when we decide to
deviate from a procedure or expand upon one.

I think that makes a lot of sense.

Does this philosophy carry over to your simulator-based recurrent training?

--------------------
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...

I was with a student in one of our club Arrows. We put the gear down
and got green lights for the 2 mains, but not for the nose.

Would activating the emergency gear extension system have been an option to
extend the nose gear in case it were down but not fully locked?

--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

In article m,
"Richard Kaplan" wrote:

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...

I was with a student in one of our club Arrows. We put the gear down
and got green lights for the 2 mains, but not for the nose.

Would activating the emergency gear extension system have been an option to
extend the nose gear in case it were down but not fully locked?

Indeed it would have been. In fact, we did that, it being one of the
items on the checklist in the POH.

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...

Indeed it would have been. In fact, we did that, it being one of the
items on the checklist in the POH.

In that case, then I agree with what you did. The only likely situation
where the emergency gear extension would have left you without 3 wheels down
and locked would have been if there were a mechanical obstruction, and as
you pointed out it is possible that cycling the gear could have made the
situation worse in this case.

--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

"Richard Kaplan" wrote in
s.com:

I was with a student in one of our club Arrows. We put the gear down
and got green lights for the 2 mains, but not for the nose.

Would activating the emergency gear extension system have been an
option to extend the nose gear in case it were down but not fully
locked?

"Sort of..." Since the two mains were down and locked there was no
pressure left in the system. Pressing the emergency gear extension knob
does nothing but release pressure, and so nothing new would have happened.

The procedure would have been to RETRACT the gear (if possible), slow down,
pull the CB, and THEN push the emergency gear extension knob. If the pump
were failing, then this faster release of pressure might do the trick.
OTOH, if there were a mechanical problem, then there are any number of
hypothetical situations where it might not even come down as well as
before.

You pays yer dollahs, and takes yer chances! G

-----------------------------------------------
James M. Knox
TriSoft ph 512-385-0316
1109-A Shady Lane fax 512-366-4331
Austin, Tx 78721
-----------------------------------------------

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...
I had an interesting experience the other day.

I was with a student in one of our club Arrows. We put the gear down
and got green lights for the 2 mains, but not for the nose.

What would you have done? Would you have cycled the gear hoping to fix
the problem, or would you have accepted the possible unlocked nosegear
in exchange for the known locked mains?

Roy,

I don't think you could have harmed anything further by cycling the gear.
Knowing how the PA28 gear system works, you can always free-fall them all
into position should you have a complete hydraulic failure.

Chances are, there was an out of rig microswitch on the nose gear, sending a
signal to the hydraulic power pack that the nose gear was not down and
locked. When the power pack received this signal, it re-energized for a
second until the microswitch was closed. When it de-energized, the
microswitch re-opened, sending the signal back to the power pack and the
vicious cycle repeated itself over and over again ... hence the cycling of
the 'in transit' (aka 'pump on') light. You could have verified all of this
by looking for a spike on the ammeter as the electric motor in the hydraulic
power pack cycled off and on.

In any case, the green light would have never illuminated at all for the
nose if it had not reached the locked position. Once it reaches the locked
position, it is not unlocking unless you select the gear up.

In either case, you were safe. It was simply an indication issue brought on
by an out of rig switch. Mx should have detected this and fixed it
otherwise it will likely occur again.

-RH