Another ownership question

Get the Citabria. More utility. You can turn it upside down :-0. Tailwheel
insurance is not a big deal if you find the right company. AUA is good.

Deb

--
1946 Luscombe 8A (His)
1948 Luscombe 8E (Hers)
1954 Cessna 195B, restoring (Ours)
Jasper, Ga. (JZP)

"Wendy" wrote in message
...

You've all given me some good informationa and confirmed what I already
suspected; thanks loads! I bought Iowa University Press' "Buying And
Owning
Your Own Airplane" today; I'll get back to you on any questions that
publication may raise. I'm still at the "what kind of airplane do I
want?"
stage, with the C-172 being the most practical and a 150hp Citabria being
the most interesting (and fun) airplanes in my price and range. The vast
majority of my flying will be by myself, so the power limitations of these
two airplanes aren't really a factor, and they'll both suit me well for
weekend jaunts as well as XC flying. The Citabria will require a hangar,
and that may be an issue as they are not the easiest things to find here
(I
want to base the plane at KCXO). Then there's tailwheel insurance... Ok,
I
am getting an idea of what this involves, and I realize I am just dealing
with the tip of the iceberg!

Wendy

"Wendy" wrote in message
...

You've all given me some good informationa and confirmed what I already
suspected; thanks loads! I bought Iowa University Press' "Buying And
Owning
Your Own Airplane" today; I'll get back to you on any questions that
publication may raise. I'm still at the "what kind of airplane do I
want?"
stage, with the C-172 being the most practical and a 150hp Citabria being
the most interesting (and fun) airplanes in my price and range. The vast
majority of my flying will be by myself, so the power limitations of these
two airplanes aren't really a factor, and they'll both suit me well for
weekend jaunts as well as XC flying. The Citabria will require a hangar,
and that may be an issue as they are not the easiest things to find here
(I
want to base the plane at KCXO). Then there's tailwheel insurance... Ok,
I
am getting an idea of what this involves, and I realize I am just dealing
with the tip of the iceberg!

Wendy


Absolutely no doubt go with the Citabria. Insurance will not be a problem.
Make sure the wing spar AD is complied with if it has a wood spar.

"Henry and Debbie McFarland" wrote in message
ink.net...
Get the Citabria. More utility. You can turn it upside down :-0. Tailwheel
insurance is not a big deal if you find the right company. AUA is good.

Deb

--
1946 Luscombe 8A (His)
1948 Luscombe 8E (Hers)
1954 Cessna 195B, restoring (Ours)
Jasper, Ga. (JZP)

I'm leaning towards the Citabria. I learned to fly one at Harvey & Rihn
Aviation, and picked up a few hours in their Super Decathlon along the way;
I love spins and rolls! Cub Crafters has a nice one for sale, although it
is the 115hp ECA (which is what my tailwheel training was done in):
http://www.cubcrafters.com/cc/airpla...&PartID=998 8
It's had the metal spar AD completed, and it looks pretty good. I've not
done enough research to know if the price is too high or not.

Wendy

Wendy,
I bought a 1968 ECA about two months ago. The insurance is about $1000/year
with AIG. I previously had about twenty hours in tail draggers and an
instrument rating. I don't know about the price on the plane you mentioned
but it does seem high. Then again, it looks like new.
Check out yahoo groups for citabriapilots. They really helped me when I
bought mine.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CitabriaPilots/

Dave


"Wendy" wrote in message
...

"Henry and Debbie McFarland" wrote in message
ink.net...
Get the Citabria. More utility. You can turn it upside down :-0.
Tailwheel
insurance is not a big deal if you find the right company. AUA is good.

Deb

--
1946 Luscombe 8A (His)
1948 Luscombe 8E (Hers)
1954 Cessna 195B, restoring (Ours)
Jasper, Ga. (JZP)

I'm leaning towards the Citabria. I learned to fly one at Harvey & Rihn
Aviation, and picked up a few hours in their Super Decathlon along the
way;
I love spins and rolls! Cub Crafters has a nice one for sale, although it
is the 115hp ECA (which is what my tailwheel training was done in):

http://www.cubcrafters.com/cc/airpla...&PartID=998 8
It's had the metal spar AD completed, and it looks pretty good. I've not
done enough research to know if the price is too high or not.

Wendy

"dave" davesjunkmail@comcast wrote in message
...
Wendy,
I bought a 1968 ECA about two months ago. The insurance is about
$1000/year
with AIG. I previously had about twenty hours in tail draggers and an
instrument rating. I don't know about the price on the plane you
mentioned
but it does seem high. Then again, it looks like new.
Check out yahoo groups for citabriapilots. They really helped me when I
bought mine.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CitabriaPilots/

Dave

I can live with $1000/yr, but if it is outrageously high I'd forgo hull
insurance until I had more time in the plane (anything I buy will be a cash
deal involving no financing, but I know I'd be insane to not carry
liability). I am not instrument rated, although I am slowly working on it
in a 172. I'll have maybe 20 hrs TW when I buy, and somewhere in the
neighborhood of 150 hrs total. Insurance peoples might gag at that The
airplanes are just loads of fun to fly (as you know!); the feeling of flight
is very immediate in a Citabria and I find that quite attractive. Not to
mention they make you pay attention on the ground... I really don't know
when I'll buy- maybe in the fall of next year, which gives me a lot of time
to research the aircraft, the process, and my own myriad compulsions
Thanks for the link to the group- I'll jump in there straightaway.

Wendy

After renting, flying, etc in Cherokees and Cessnas, I bought a Grumman
Cheetah.

Well, the RV people http://www.vansaircraft.com/ talk about the "RV grin".

The Grumman is no RV (close in some respects), but there is such a thing as
the "Grumman grin" http://www.aya.org/

Have fun!
++++++++++++++
Duane MacInnis PE
Flight Instructor
Cell (604) 454-7415
www.macinnisaviation.com

Grumman Cheetah C-GVJF


"Wendy" wrote in message
...

You've all given me some good informationa and confirmed what I already
suspected; thanks loads! I bought Iowa University Press' "Buying And
Owning
Your Own Airplane" today; I'll get back to you on any questions that
publication may raise. I'm still at the "what kind of airplane do I
want?"
stage, with the C-172 being the most practical and a 150hp Citabria being
the most interesting (and fun) airplanes in my price and range. The vast
majority of my flying will be by myself, so the power limitations of these
two airplanes aren't really a factor, and they'll both suit me well for
weekend jaunts as well as XC flying. The Citabria will require a hangar,
and that may be an issue as they are not the easiest things to find here
(I
want to base the plane at KCXO). Then there's tailwheel insurance... Ok,
I
am getting an idea of what this involves, and I realize I am just dealing
with the tip of the iceberg!

Wendy

Andrew Gideon wrote:


Another factor to consider, beyond hours flying, is the hours spent with the
aircraft sitting away from home. Renting, this costs. Owning, it's free.

That's a "column" that pushed me heavily towards club membership (something
like ownership with training wheels {8^).

Yup, I went with club membership. It has almost all the advantages of
owning but few of the drawbacks. At least in my club the fleet is big
enough that scheduling is seldom a problem, except on the exceptionally
nice weekends when you wait until Thursday to schedule . I pay
monthly dues that include insurance as a named insured, and cost less
than buying insurance on the open market. The wet rate for a 20 year
old Warrior II is about the same as the wet rate for a 30 year old 172
at an FBO but the Warriors are better equipped (gps, autopilot). There
is a pool of instructors associated with the club that use a common
syllabus and meet club requirements, and regular ground schools are
held. Maintanence is handled by the club, with help from members
volunteering their time under A&P supervision. Also the cameradarie is
a big benefit.

Persoally, I can't see ever owning while the club is available to me.
Heck, I've figured that if you GAVE me an airplane it still would cost
me more (insurance, taxes, tie down, annuals, etc) than I pay to fly in
the club. Btw I fly about 50-75 hours a year.

Mike
--
PP-ASEL
PA28-161
http://www.wingsofcarolina.org
Note: email invalid. Respond on newsgroup

TTA Cherokee Driver wrote:
: Yup, I went with club membership. It has almost all the advantages of
: owning but few of the drawbacks.

Biggest problem I had with flight club was no percieved cost
benefit to just renting from an FBO. A flight club cannot afford to run a
shoestring budget, and must bill real (expected) costs per hour. The fact
is that airplanes run best and are the cheapest when they're flown a lot.
If you fly 75 hours a year, buying your own (or better yet partnership)
might be a break-even point to renting. Difference is if you own it, you
only immediately see the direct operating costs (fuel/oil). For me it's
easier to justify a nice 2-hour afternoon flight after work if I can stop
by the gas station on the way to the airport and refill my Cherokee for
$20. If I had to pay $144 for 2 hours of club rental, I wouldn't do it.

: Persoally, I can't see ever owning while the club is available to me.
: Heck, I've figured that if you GAVE me an airplane it still would cost
: me more (insurance, taxes, tie down, annuals, etc) than I pay to fly in
: the club. Btw I fly about 50-75 hours a year.

Again, for that useage, it's probably a break-even point for solo
ownership. For me it's the direct perceived cost of taking a flight that
will encourage/discourage it. Flying a 1100nm round-trip to see my folks
a month ago directly cost me $150 in fuel. For $750 club PA-28 rental,
there's no way in hell I would have gone.

YMMV
-Cory



--
************************************************** ***********************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
************************************************** ***********************

wrote:

TTA Cherokee Driver wrote:
: Yup, I went with club membership. It has almost all the advantages of
: owning but few of the drawbacks.

Biggest problem I had with flight club was no percieved cost
benefit to just renting from an FBO.

You are right. I pay about the same per hour to fly in the club as I
would with the FBO. The benefits I see of club membership over
similar-cost FBO renting a

1. The club has a fleet of 9 airplanes of three types with good
availability but the FBO only has one 172 (well did until it was wrecked
recently but they are replacing it) and one 182 with very tight
availability -- if you aren't a primary student at the FBO, forget about
it on the weekends.

2. The club's planes are better equipped (autopilot, gps)

3. If I fly with the FBO I would have to buy renter's insurance that
costs more than the club's dues, and those dues include insurance that
is better than what I could buy on my own, and also include the club's
facilities including a club hangar (that I have access to 24/7 so if I
want to fly on the spur of the moment I can even when the facility is
closed and locked up for the day) and a very nice weather downlink
briefing setup. Plus I like the cameraderie.

4. The club has 6 instructors to choose from while the FBO only has one,
see point #1 about availability

(remember the above is comparing the club to FBO renting, not comparing
it to owning

Difference is if you own it, you
only immediately see the direct operating costs (fuel/oil). For me it's
easier to justify a nice 2-hour afternoon flight after work if I can stop
by the gas station on the way to the airport and refill my Cherokee for
$20. If I had to pay $144 for 2 hours of club rental, I wouldn't do it.

This is a very good point, though it's more emotional than practical. I
do sometimes cringe when writing those large checks for long flights.
However on the flip side if I owned I think I would cringe in the months
when I would have to write large checks for all the fixed costs but I
didn't fly the airplane very much if at all. And given my flying habits
that second cringe would amount to far more money over time.

: Persoally, I can't see ever owning while the club is available to me.
: Heck, I've figured that if you GAVE me an airplane it still would cost
: me more (insurance, taxes, tie down, annuals, etc) than I pay to fly in
: the club. Btw I fly about 50-75 hours a year.

Again, for that useage, it's probably a break-even point for solo
ownership. For me it's the direct perceived cost of taking a flight that
will encourage/discourage it. Flying a 1100nm round-trip to see my folks
a month ago directly cost me $150 in fuel. For $750 club PA-28 rental,
there's no way in hell I would have gone.

I can see that view, however I would come out ahead that way because I
did not pay several hundred dollars in fixed costs for the previous
months when I only flew a few hours due to travel, weather, etc.

In fact my brother-in-law owns an Archer which he's had for a long time
and has long since paid off. I was envious, until I learned he hasn't
flown since January and the plane is just sitting there rotting because
he can't justify keeping up with the fixed costs for the flying he's
doing (it doesn't help he's been laid off and is in a tight spot).

Which brings up the other advantage of the club over ownership: it's a
lot easier to walk away if something happens medically or financially to
make flying impractical.

Of course all this doesn't mean I don't fantasize about owning an
airplane, but for me that fantasy also includes getting a windfall of at
least $100,000 first

YMMV

We agree on this, it is a wise statement indeed

Mike
--
PP-ASEL
PA28-161
http://www.wingsofcarolina.org
Note: email invalid. Respond on newsgroup

TTA Cherokee Driver wrote:
: This is a very good point, though it's more emotional than practical. I
: do sometimes cringe when writing those large checks for long flights.
: However on the flip side if I owned I think I would cringe in the months
: when I would have to write large checks for all the fixed costs but I
: didn't fly the airplane very much if at all. And given my flying habits
: that second cringe would amount to far more money over time.

Maintenance doesn't have to be a bank-killer. There are more
cost-effective ways (read: owner-assisted annuals and preventative
maintenance) to keep a bird airworthy. The biggest potential cost savings
is to get a partner, or maybe two.

: I can see that view, however I would come out ahead that way because I
: did not pay several hundred dollars in fixed costs for the previous
: months when I only flew a few hours due to travel, weather, etc.

True... although I've got a somewhat skewed view since I've got a
unique agreement with my partners. They buy the parts, I put them on, the
mechanic inspects and signs it off.

: Which brings up the other advantage of the club over ownership: it's a
: lot easier to walk away if something happens medically or financially to
: make flying impractical.

Very true. It became obvious to me that if I wanted to fly more
than an hour a month, I'd have to own. For me, getting the partners was
enough to share the financial responsibility.

: Of course all this doesn't mean I don't fantasize about owning an
: airplane, but for me that fantasy also includes getting a windfall of at
: least $100,000 first

Aw... a descent-shape PA-28-140 can be had for $25-30k. I guess
my problem with flight clubs is that they cannot be run "cheaply."
Everything costs more when it's a club... insurance goes up (a lot!),
engine overhaul must be paid for in advance and done by the book (pay a
mechanic to take it off, send to to have overhauled, etc), etc, etc.

: YMMV

: We agree on this, it is a wise statement indeed

I'll stand by it and reiterate...

BTW, talk to me again in 6 months when I cussing working on the friggin'
thing again at annual time!

-Cory
--
************************************************** ***********************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
************************************************** ***********************