Cost to install IFR GPS in a basic IFR 172?

An IFR GPS *with a current database* is a leagal substitue for an ADF.

The requirement for a current database, if any, comes from the Approved Flight
Manual Supplement. Not all AFMSs have this requirement, but most do. You have to
read the AFMS for -that- airplane. Many UPS GX50/60 installs used boiler-plate
AFMS verbage that does not include the requirement for a current database.
Instead it requires only that the PIC determines that the procedure in the
database matches the procedure as currently published, or something like that.

Furthermore, an IFR GPS can be a legal substitute for an ADF for many
operations, but not all. AIM 1-1-19:

"The GPS Approach Overlay Program is an authorization for pilots to use GPS
avionics under IFR for flying designated nonprecision instrument approach
procedures, except LOC, LDA, and simplified directional facility (SDF)
procedures. These procedures are now identified by the name of the procedure and
"or GPS" (e.g., VOR/DME or GPS RWY 15). Other previous types of overlays have
either been converted to this format or replaced with stand-alone procedures.
Only approaches contained in the current onboard navigation database are
authorized. The navigation database may contain information about nonoverlay
approach procedures that is intended to be used to enhance position orientation,
generally by providing a map, while flying these approaches using conventional
NAVAIDs. This approach information should not be confused with a GPS overlay
approach (see the receiver operating manual, AFM, or AFM Supplement for details
on how to identify these approaches in the navigation database)."

Dave Butler wrote:
An IFR GPS *with a current database* is a leagal substitue for an ADF.

The requirement for a current database, if any, comes from the Approved Flight
Manual Supplement. Not all AFMSs have this requirement, but most do. You have to
read the AFMS for -that- airplane. Many UPS GX50/60 installs used boiler-plate
AFMS verbage that does not include the requirement for a current database.
Instead it requires only that the PIC determines that the procedure in the
database matches the procedure as currently published, or something like that.

True. The AFMS for my 430 installation does require a current DB and I
had forgotten that not all were that way.

My comment was more to the fact that the database has to be current for
the approach (i.e. the approach or waypoint must be in the database). As
I mentioned earlier, I'm currently visting outside of my normal database
coverage area. As I don't have the northern Michigan approaches in the
database, I can't do a GPS approach. Nor can I do any approach that
utilizes a NDB. Kinda limits my options.

Its the first time in the two years of flying behind the 430 that wish I
had kept my working ADF.





--
Frank Stutzman
Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl"
Hood River, OR

Frank Stutzman wrote:

Dude wrote:

Whether or not the Apollo units are a good idea or not is not something I
will address. Don't forget that they are essentially "orphaned" units.
Also, to be legal, there may be instances where you need to have the ADF
equipment on board.



I thought that an IFR GPS was a legal substitute for an ADF in ALL cases????


An IFR GPS *with a current database* is a leagal substitue for an ADF.

Not necessary for the GX units.

On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 16:49:11 GMT, "Dude" wrote:

I thought that an IFR GPS was a legal substitute for an ADF in ALL cases????

I don't know all of the in's and out's that apply to TSO129 certified
equipment, so my conclusions may be incorrect.

My understanding is that if you are flying IFR, and have a TSO129 box, and
require an alternate, the AIM says that:

"Any required alternate airport must have an approved instrument approach
procedure other than GPS that is anticipated to be operational and
available at the estimated time of arrival, and which the aircraft is
equipped to fly."

So if you are choosing an NDB approach at your alternate airport, you would
need to have a functioning ADF receiver on board.


--ron

"Dude" wrote in message
...
Whether or not the Apollo units are a good idea or not is not something
I
will address. Don't forget that they are essentially "orphaned" units.
Also, to be legal, there may be instances where you need to have the ADF
equipment on board.


I thought that an IFR GPS was a legal substitute for an ADF in ALL
cases????

What do you mean by "ALL"? Some ILS approaches still require an ADF (i.e.,
BHB ILS 22).

I had my Cherokee in for it's vfr transponder check the other day and
asked about radio upgrades. I have an Apollo/UPS/Garmin GX 65 so I
asked about support for it in case something goes wrong. The avionics
guy looked it up on a sheet of paper and said that Garmin is still
repairing them but there was a $400 blanket charge no matter how
trivial the problem. You sure want to make sure it's broke before you
send it in, he said.

He had a used King audio panel and was going to check into a used
KX155 and glideslope for me. We're talking 4500 to $5000 to get to
IFR equipped here. I'm a vfr pilot and probably won't get my IFR
rating. Give me some guidance here group. Do I dump this kind of
money in a 1966 Cherokee 140 in slightly better than average condition
or do I invest in just a comm only to replace my fried navcom and call
it good? I've read a hundred threads in the past about this subject
and am still torn what to do. I'm reading in another thread about bad
support on the King KX-155's, too.

Joe Schneider
8437R


"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
...
On 24 Aug 2004 12:15:08 -0700, (C Kingsbury)
wrote:

Googling the group yielded little so here goes...

1979 172, overall average condition with mostly original radios and
wiring (one RT-385 recently replaced by a TKM radio, M1 Loran from
a
few centuries ago)

The Cessna 300 ADF has gone flaky. The box tests fine on the bench
which suggests a wild goose chase may be in store to find the
gremlins. One of the two ILS approaches at my home field require
ADF,
and a few fields I go to are ADF/GPS-only so I need one of the two.

My idea is to find a good used Apollo GX-50/GX-60 unit and replace
the
ADF. No need to touch the Loran, it makes a good backup. I'll get
legal ADF and DME capability not to mention a moving map. Trying to
convince 4 other partners this is a good idea b/c it will make it
easier to sell shares in the future and even if they are VFR-only
the
moving map is a big plus.

The local flight school says they've been spending an average of
$6000
to do this with their birds at the local shop. Those of you who've
done this recently, any thoughts?

Bet,
-cwk.

Whether or not the Apollo units are a good idea or not is not
something I
will address. Don't forget that they are essentially "orphaned"
units.
Also, to be legal, there may be instances where you need to have the
ADF
equipment on board.

However, a recent install of my CNX80 was priced at 45 man-hours for
the
installation (@ $60/hr = $2700). In addition to that labor cost,
there was
also about $1,000 in extra equipment required not included in the
price of
the CNX80.

I believe the unit you are considering will also require remote
annunciators of some sort, which would cost in addition to the labor
and
cost of the unit itself.

$6,000 sounds about right. (My CNX80, installed, was about double
that).


--ron

"JJS" jschneider@REMOVE SOCKSpldi.net wrote:
He had a used King audio panel and was going to check into a used
KX155 and glideslope for me. We're talking 4500 to $5000 to get to
IFR equipped here. I'm a vfr pilot and probably won't get my IFR
rating.

If you don't plan on getting an instrument rating, why spend the money
to bring the plane up to legal IFR specs? The GX-60 gives you VFR GPS,
with moving map, and a COM radio. What more do you need for VFR
operation?

Roy Smith wrote:
If you don't plan on getting an instrument rating, why spend the money
to bring the plane up to legal IFR specs? The GX-60 gives you VFR GPS,
with moving map, and a COM radio. What more do you need for VFR
operation?

The GX-60 is an IFR GPS. Also, for me, even though I don't keep myself
IFR current anymore, it's nice to know the equipment is there "just in
case". Of course, in that scenario, the most important thing is probably
my wing leveler.

--- Jay



--
__!__
Jay and Teresa Masino ___(_)___
http://www2.ari.net/jmasino ! ! !
http://www.oceancityairport.com
http://www.oc-adolfos.com

Jay Masino wrote:

Roy Smith wrote:

If you don't plan on getting an instrument rating, why spend the money
to bring the plane up to legal IFR specs? The GX-60 gives you VFR GPS,
with moving map, and a COM radio. What more do you need for VFR
operation?


The GX-60 is an IFR GPS.

If you have it installed that way. If you don't want to have it
certified at the time of install it is just a VFR GPS. You could then
have it cetified at a later date.

JJS jschneider@remove sockspldi.net wrote:
: He had a used King audio panel and was going to check into a used
: KX155 and glideslope for me. We're talking 4500 to $5000 to get to
: IFR equipped here. I'm a vfr pilot and probably won't get my IFR
: rating. Give me some guidance here group. Do I dump this kind of
: money in a 1966 Cherokee 140 in slightly better than average condition
: or do I invest in just a comm only to replace my fried navcom and call
: it good? I've read a hundred threads in the past about this subject
: and am still torn what to do. I'm reading in another thread about bad
: support on the King KX-155's, too.

: Joe Schneider
: 8437R

You are asking if you should install a KX-155 instead of what? Is the Garmin
GPS/COM kaput, or do you have another nav/com that died? In general, I agree with the
concensus that you don't want to upgrade avionics that you don't need or intend to
use. You can go cheaper routes than a KX-155 w/ GS if you never plan on using the
GS. The extra cost of that will most likely not be made up in resale. If you have an
inkling to get your rating, it tips the scales more. Need more information for real
advice.

-Cory

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering Ph.D. Graduate Student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************