Owning before obtaining a PP license

I bought a grumman before I finished training. I am very pleased with how
it worked out and would do it again. Make sure you have the money for it
and have a fairly good idea what sort of flying (how much load, how far) you
will be doing. It is going to be expensive.

Good luck and go ahead with it if you want. Just do your research first.

Bottom line is you can never justify (finance-wise) having your own plane -
but the less quantifiable things like always flying the same plane, having a
reliable plane, etc are very nice if you can get away with owning.


"C Kingsbury" wrote in message
link.net...

"New Pilot" wrote in message
. ..
Hello all,

Wanted to hear your advice about buying a brand-new plane even before
getting the PPL ticket.

Here is my situation: I am a businessman sitting on quite a bit of cash
being generated by my business, and I am also a student pilot, will
probably
get my ticket by the next Summer. I am thinking about buying one of them
Cirri SR22.

You've probably heard the saying that "A fool and his money will soon have
more airplane than either can handle." You're probably not a fool but it's
a
wise statement to heed nonetheless.

Does this make sense economically, or am I totally crazy? In general, how
good an investment are those brand-new airplanes, provided one can afford
to
pay cash for them?

There's only one kind of new asset that stands a good chance of
appreciating
over time: a house. And that works only because they ain't makin' any more
land. If you want to preserve your equity buy a low-time plane that's
10-20
years old in good shape.

If you do buy a new plane with the intent to do a leaseback you want to
buy
a common plane that everyone knows how to fly already. A new 172SP or 182
with the G1000 would be the queen of any rental fleet and would probably
get
plenty of usage. Since it's under warranty you won't have to sweat
maintenance costs. Oh, and either of these would be very realistic planes
to
learn to fly in and not get murdered on insurance. I'm usually very
bearish
on leasebacks but this one could work.

-cwk.

The best reason not to buy an airplane before you get your certificate is
that you don't have as clear an idea of what you want now as you will after
your checkride. Another reason is that you are likely to pay over
$10,000/yr for a lot of performance (like de-ice) that you can't use until
you have an instrument rating and that is assuming that anyone will insure
you at any price.

Airplanes aren't investments. There was a period recently where used
airplane appreciated, mostly because the new airplanes weren't improved over
the older ones. Cars would hold their value if manufacturers produced the
same models for decades without improvement. Now that virtually all new
airplanes are being delivered with glass cockpits you can expect the old
ones to continue sliding.

Mike
MU-2


"New Pilot" wrote in message
. ..
Hello all,

Wanted to hear your advice about buying a brand-new plane even before
getting the PPL ticket.

Here is my situation: I am a businessman sitting on quite a bit of cash
being generated by my business, and I am also a student pilot, will
probably
get my ticket by the next Summer. I am thinking about buying one of them
Cirri SR22.

Considering that the inflation in this country is picking up, and also
that
there is quite a long waitlist for those Cirrus aircraft, would it make
sense for me to place an order now, and until I get my ticket and gain
some
experience, to lease the plane back to my local FBO?

Does this make sense economically, or am I totally crazy? In general, how
good an investment are those brand-new airplanes, provided one can afford
to
pay cash for them?

Thanks in advance,

A Newbie Pilot

On Mon, 01 Nov 2004 22:50:09 GMT, "Mike Rapoport"

There was a period recently where used
airplane appreciated, mostly because the new airplanes weren't improved over
the older ones. Cars would hold their value if manufacturers produced the
same models for decades without improvement. Now that virtually all new
airplanes are being delivered with glass cockpits you can expect the old
ones to continue sliding.

This is an interesting viewpoint, and it will be interesting to see
what happens to the price of used planes. I personally think the used
market will move sideways, perhaps a bit down for a while, largely
driven by increased fuel and insurance costs and the overall economy
reflecting a lack of free cash to indulge in the aviation market.

-Nathan

"Nathan Young" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 01 Nov 2004 22:50:09 GMT, "Mike Rapoport"

There was a period recently where used
airplane appreciated, mostly because the new airplanes weren't improved
over
the older ones. Cars would hold their value if manufacturers produced the
same models for decades without improvement. Now that virtually all new
airplanes are being delivered with glass cockpits you can expect the old
ones to continue sliding.

This is an interesting viewpoint, and it will be interesting to see
what happens to the price of used planes. I personally think the used
market will move sideways, perhaps a bit down for a while, largely
driven by increased fuel and insurance costs and the overall economy
reflecting a lack of free cash to indulge in the aviation market.

-Nathan

I agree with you that higher fuel and insurance will negatively impact the
market but I think that the glass cockpit airplanes are a big deal. How
would you like to be the last guy to buy a 206 without the G1000? That
announcement cost him at least $50,000. Lets face reality, used machinery
generally depreciates both because of wear and because the current product
generally improves. Airplanes have been stagnant for years, but now Cirrus,
Diamond and Lancair have delivered genuine improvements in terms of speed
per dollar. Soon there will be diesels with significantly longer TBOs,
single lever control and much better economy. An old airplane is simply not
going to hold its value when the new ones go 50% faster on 70% of the fuel
and the engines last half again as long. It is about time that GA started
moving forward again!

Mike
MU-2

On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 01:45:22 GMT, "Mike Rapoport"
wrote:



I agree with you that higher fuel and insurance will negatively impact the
market but I think that the glass cockpit airplanes are a big deal. How
would you like to be the last guy to buy a 206 without the G1000? That
announcement cost him at least $50,000. Lets face reality, used machinery
generally depreciates both because of wear and because the current product
generally improves. Airplanes have been stagnant for years, but now Cirrus,
Diamond and Lancair have delivered genuine improvements in terms of speed
per dollar. Soon there will be diesels with significantly longer TBOs,
single lever control and much better economy. An old airplane is simply not
going to hold its value when the new ones go 50% faster on 70% of the fuel
and the engines last half again as long. It is about time that GA started
moving forward again!


The Cirrus, Lancair, and Diamond 'glass' aircraft are a huge step
forward for GA. Faster and more fuel efficient. That's the bottom
line when we're trying to get someplace. These planes should (and do)
command a higher asking price because they offer more performance than
the existing GA spamcan.

Sarcasticly speaking - I wouldn't have been the last guy to buy a 2003
C206 because I would have been buying a 1970s 206 instead, and saving
myself $200k+. In my view, the planes were essentially the same.
Your point is dead on for the recently mfg'd used planes vs the new
glass panels. Anyone who has the cash to buy a $300k C182 or C206 is
going to spend the extra $50k to get the glass paneled version.

Hopefully a retrofit market will popup to service the thousands of
steam-gauge Piper/Cessna/Beeches. That would help bridge the gap
between old and new. Anytime there are that many dollars at stake,
you can bet an entrepreneur will give it a go. I wonder how much
owners would be willing to pay to 'glass-panelize' their older
spamcan?

-Nathan

"Nathan Young" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 01:45:22 GMT, "Mike Rapoport"
wrote:



I agree with you that higher fuel and insurance will negatively impact the
market but I think that the glass cockpit airplanes are a big deal. How
would you like to be the last guy to buy a 206 without the G1000? That
announcement cost him at least $50,000. Lets face reality, used machinery
generally depreciates both because of wear and because the current product
generally improves. Airplanes have been stagnant for years, but now
Cirrus,
Diamond and Lancair have delivered genuine improvements in terms of speed
per dollar. Soon there will be diesels with significantly longer TBOs,
single lever control and much better economy. An old airplane is simply
not
going to hold its value when the new ones go 50% faster on 70% of the fuel
and the engines last half again as long. It is about time that GA started
moving forward again!


The Cirrus, Lancair, and Diamond 'glass' aircraft are a huge step
forward for GA. Faster and more fuel efficient. That's the bottom
line when we're trying to get someplace. These planes should (and do)
command a higher asking price because they offer more performance than
the existing GA spamcan.

Sarcasticly speaking - I wouldn't have been the last guy to buy a 2003
C206 because I would have been buying a 1970s 206 instead, and saving
myself $200k+. In my view, the planes were essentially the same.
Your point is dead on for the recently mfg'd used planes vs the new
glass panels. Anyone who has the cash to buy a $300k C182 or C206 is
going to spend the extra $50k to get the glass paneled version.

Hopefully a retrofit market will popup to service the thousands of
steam-gauge Piper/Cessna/Beeches. That would help bridge the gap
between old and new. Anytime there are that many dollars at stake,
you can bet an entrepreneur will give it a go. I wonder how much
owners would be willing to pay to 'glass-panelize' their older
spamcan?

-Nathan

What is interesting, but hasn't come into play yet is that the G-1000 is
cheaper (to Cessna) than the instruments it replaces. At some point
manufacturers will stop charging a premium for glass. My guess is that it
will happen in the next two years.

Mike
MU-2

From this chair? $ero.

Jim



Nathan Young
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

I wonder how much
-owners would be willing to pay to 'glass-panelize' their older
-spamcan?



Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

I have to disagree with a few other statements I am reading here. I am sure
I will catch it, but the world is changing. Mike makes some good points.
Cessna and Beech will be happy to tell you about demand for the new panels.
It has actually sparked the heresy of proposing new designs within Cessna
(Unless they are keeping the worlds best secret, don't hold your breath).

Buying a 10 to 20 year old aircraft is a way to preserve equity, but not the
best investment for everyone. The cost of maintaining them is much higher,
potentially making it cost even more to own over the long haul than a later
model or new plane. If you count the time to learn about used planes, and
your time managing all the repairs (potentially with technicians from
several companies), it can add up fast.

If you want to go glass, you could likely justify a new glass trainer, and
expect to sell it for about a 40 to 60k loss in 3 years. If you trade it
back to the people that sold it, for one of their bigger models, they
usually cut you a better deal. Otherwise, you have to sell it yourself, or
lose even more.

These comments seem to be more of a self reinforcing circular reasoning.
Or, I fly therefore I buy.

I completely don't get your point.

Please be more specific about what points you mean, and how they are
"circular".

What you have stated is a truism, equivalent to "I eat, therefore I buy." Of
course it costs money. There is no way to eat or fly without spending
someone's cash or resources.