Cost of ownership question

In article 1104417758.851483@sj-nntpcache-3, Dave Butler wrote:
Stealth Pilot wrote:

At my airport, at the end of 10 years I'd have spent an extra $27000, the
difference between hangaring and an outside tie-down. I think I could do a
pretty nice restoration (if it needed it, which it won't) for $27000.

In ten years the new paintjob you'll need will be half that. You'll
manage to spend some of the rest on higher insurance premiums, new
plexiglass from UV crazing, extra sets of tires, maintenance or loss of
value due to corrosion, ... Meanwhile you put up with the inconvenience
of operating from a tiedown, like washing the plane more often, messing
with tiedowns, covers (oh, I hate covers), ice and snow, mud, etc...

There's probably some small financial savings to be had at airports where
hangars are a lot more that tiedowns, but it's not nearly as much as the
straight difference in price.

--
Ben Jackson

http://www.ben.com/

This may be one of those religious issues like high vs low wing. I doubt anyone
is going to be swayed one way or the other. But anyway...

Ben Jackson wrote:

In article 1104417758.851483@sj-nntpcache-3, Dave Butler wrote:
At my airport, at the end of 10 years I'd have spent an extra $27000, the
difference between hangaring and an outside tie-down. I think I could do a
pretty nice restoration (if it needed it, which it won't) for $27000.

In ten years the new paintjob you'll need will be half that. You'll

That would truly be a first-class paint job. If you're going to be spending that
kind of money on paint, no wonder you want to spend even more on hangars to
protect your investment. I'm not that much into paint.

manage to spend some of the rest on higher insurance premiums, new

my insurance premiums didn't change when I moved out of the hangar.

plexiglass from UV crazing,

that's what the cabin cover is for.

extra sets of tires,

I wear out my tires, they don't have time to deteriorate due to exposure.

maintenance or loss of value due to corrosion,

OK, I'll give you a small point on that one.

... Meanwhile you put up with the inconvenience
of operating from a tiedown,

Inconvenience? You taxi in, shutdown, and walk away. No tugs, no hangar doors.
Same thing when you depart. You start up and taxi out, no tugs, no hangar doors.

The fuel truck comes to the tiedown and fuels you before you get there or after
you're gone. At my airport, if you have a hangar, you have to pull the plane out
of the hangar to have it fueled. That means you have to personally be there and
wait for the fuel truck (yes, of course, there are other reasons for personally
supervising fueling).

like washing the plane more often,

Yeah, OK, but it's not that bad (for me). Depends on how fussy you are, I suppose.

messing with tiedowns,

What messing?

covers (oh, I hate covers),

I hate tugs and hangar doors.

ice and snow, mud, etc...

OK, I'll give you another point. Not too bad in my climate (NC), the biggest
problem is early morning departures in wintertime frost on the airframe. I don't
do very many of those, and when I need to, I can get an overnight hangar for
$15, or point it into the sun and wait an hour and it will melt on its own.


There's probably some small financial savings to be had at airports where
hangars are a lot more that tiedowns, but it's not nearly as much as the
straight difference in price.

Take out the "nearly" and I'll agree with you.

I think the main difference between the hangar zealots and the cheapouts is how
anal they are about having a showpiece vs. the people who just like to fly. The
hangar crowd are the same ones who drive Escalades and spend their weekends
washing and waxing them.

There, that ought to liven up the conversation... ;-)

Dave

Ben Jackson wrote:

In article 1104417758.851483@sj-nntpcache-3, Dave Butler wrote:
Stealth Pilot wrote:

At my airport, at the end of 10 years I'd have spent an extra $27000, the
difference between hangaring and an outside tie-down. I think I could do a
pretty nice restoration (if it needed it, which it won't) for $27000.

In ten years the new paintjob you'll need will be half that.

Get real. A complete recover job on my Maule is less than that -- at Maule.

George Patterson
The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

Stealth Pilot wrote:
: On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 01:38:56 -0800, "Slip'er"
: wrote:
:This bird will be parked outside,
:most likely.
: I'm an aircraft owner so dont be offended when I say that that is a
: truely dumb decision.

I'm an aircraft owner so don't be offended when I tell you that we cannot
all live in that perfect world.

In the 4 years that I have had my airplane I have "saved" $10,320 over
having the plane hangered. There is still a 12-year waiting list for
hangers - they say that a few will be built next year (all are already
allocated). You cannot build your own hanger. There is one for sale
at a nearby airport for $35,000 which is 61% of the value of my airplane.
It has neither heat nor electricity.
There are a few nice hangers for sale in southern New Hampshire in the
$100,000 range.
I find that my cabin cover and wing covers do a fine job of keeping the
paint in good shape. In 4 more years when it needs to be repainted I will
have more than $20,000 in "savings" that can be applied to a nice paint
job.
I have a series built aluminum airplane, so the potential problems of
having it sit outside are well known. If you've got a rare, or fabric covered,
or very expensive airplane by all means hanger it if you can.
--
Aaron C.

In the 4 years that I have had my airplane I have "saved" $10,320 over
having the plane hangered. There is still a 12-year waiting list for
hangers - they say that a few will be built next year (all are already
BRBR


Where I live, the smallest t-hanger is $550(US) a month. The waiting list goes
back well over a decade. The average size t-hanger on the field goes for $700.
Box hangers $1200 and up.

$6600/yr for a hanger.

Cost of a pretty decent single engine plane every 10 years.


--
Dr. Nuketopia
Sorry, no e-Mail.
Spam forgeries have resulted in thousands of faked bounces to my address.

I'm an aircraft owner so dont be offended when I say that that is a
truely dumb decision.

There must be a lot of dumb people out there because there are a ton of
airplanes tied-down on ramps all over the country.

no kidding, your first decision as an intending aircraft owner should
ALWAYS be "where am I going to hangar it?"

Well, my local airport OKB has about 26 hangars. About 6 of those are not
rentable due to lack of structural integrety. The others hav broken doors
and blue tarps on the roof with tires holding it down. These hangars go for
$400 per month. They stopped taking names when the waiting list for a
hanger reached 100 people. The airport is building 21 additional hangers
which with any luck will be done in 2005. When this happens, the rent on
ALL hangers will be $500+ per month (T-hanger). I have no hope of getting a
hanger here for a long long long time. But, parking it outside might be
possible. The monthly tie-down is about $100 per month so I save $400 per
month parking outside. The next closest airport is L18 with what I believe
to be similar hanger rates ( I do need to check) CRQ is third closest but
expect to pay $600 - $900 for a hanger here and there is nothing available.
Not to mention that CRQ is pushing out small GA for jet centers.

Now F70 could be an option and I believe that I might be able to get a hange
for about $300/mo if my memory is correct BUT, now my plane is over an hour
away.

One of my engineering contractors has a Pitts hangered in NC for $120/month.
Of course, in many parts of the country the question should be where am I
going to hanger my plane. But here in Southern California the difference is
likely $5,000+ per year and then only if you are lucky enough to get into
one. I know pilots who have been on waiting lists for 6 years.

just close your eyes and consider the difference in airworthiness
between a hangared aircraft and one sitting in the open after 1 year,
5 years, ten years. after that time one aircraft will just about be in
pristine condition and the other close to needing extensive
restoration.

Weather takes its toll but here in SoCal it isn't too bad although I am
quite close to the coast. OKB is only 2 miles from the beach and gets quite
a marine layer for a few months of the year.

hangarage will save you thousands of dollars over the life of an
aircraft.

Heck, as I mentioned, I can save "thousands" of dollars every year parking
it outside. Taking the example to the extreme... A used 7ECA with about
1000 hrs TBO can be had for $35K. Assume I save $5k/year in Tie-down. That
means in 7 years I have saved enough money to buy another 7ECA. --So fly
the plane about 140 hours per year sell it for $10,000 with a runout engine
and bad fabric and go buy a new plane every 7 years. Heck, I even saved
enough money to pay for my fuel.

Slip'er

On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 15:22:39 -0800, "Slip'er"
wrote:

all right you guys, I surrender. Leave them out in the weather and
throw dirt on them every time you have finsihed flying :-)

what you guys have proven to me is that our little airfield 50km south
of Perth in Western Australia is even more special than I had
believed.

we maintain and develop the field ourselves. we have a peppercorn
lease on the property (free) and the costs are club dues plus a few
days occasionally spent on the tractor and slasher mowing the flat
open areas of the airfield.(which is good clean fun)

if we were subject to the costs you put up with not one of us could
afford to be flying. my hangarage costs are about $600 per year.
in fact my overheads are no more than $2000 per year with flying
costing $20-25 per hour.

I'll leave you guys to slash wrists, bay at the moon in frustration,
and I'll just go back to my little piece of heaven.

Stealth Pilot

I'll leave you guys to slash wrists, bay at the moon in frustration,
and I'll just go back to my little piece of heaven.

I wouldn't mind a little piece of your heaven. Oh wait, I would be an
"illegal alien" there and Australia is a lot smarter than the US on that
issue...you'd throw me out.

Stealth Pilot wrote:

what you guys have proven to me is that our little airfield 50km
south
of Perth in Western Australia is even more special than I had
believed.


It is special indeed. Believe me, if I could hangar at a reasonable
cost, it would certainly be one of the 1st items of business after
buying a plane. Consider yourself a lucky man.
John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 01:38:56 -0800, "Slip'er"
wrote:

All great feedback so far. Keep it coming. I have made a few posts about
my efforts to select a plane. I am definitely caught in analysis paralysis.
I am also caught up with fear of selling my stock when it is doing so well.
I sold 500 shares to buy Christmas presents, two weeks after I sold them
those 500 shares were worth an additional $3500. I know this matters little
in the big scheme, you can't time the market...etc. But I'm still planning
to hold out until the fall and review my plans. Back to the plane.

If you could accurately predict the future value of your stock,
finances would not be an issue... Until you sell it, the stock is
essentially worthless.

I have only flown Citabrias and Decathalons with a little bit of Piper
PA-140 / PA-180 and a PT-23. I love the Citabria/Decathalon but am luke
warm at best about the Archer/172/etc. This bird will be parked outside,
most likely.

In my opinion, parking a plane outside is false economy. You save a
little each month, but pay for it in other ways:
-Increased insurance rates
-Stong winds can damage control surfaces
-Plane will need new paint sooner (sandblasting effect and paint
oxidation)
-Tires wear out sooner
-Plane will continuously need a wash (washing a plane = major time
sink)
-Excessive heat/cold not good for gyros and radios
-Control surfaces are flying 8760hrs a year = worn out hinges and
cables. This is true even if you use a control lock, as the controls
still move a slight amount.
-Worrying every time a storm pulls thru
-It is a hell of a lot easier to conduct routine maintenance in a
hangar.
-A hangar gives you a place to store the massive piles of aviation
related crap that an aircraft owner ends up collecting.

Also, if you live in a cold weather climate, you will pat yourself on
the back when you get preheat and then pull the plane out of a heated
hangar.

Finally, I believe the Citabria's have fabric wings, which is not a
good choice for a permanent outdoor enviroment.

When I really think about it, this wouldn't be such a difficult decision if
I were single. The real pain I feel is that buying a plane feels so
selfish! This is a huge, expensive hobby for ME.
Yes, my kids will enjoy
it but I doubt my wife will fly with me until the kids are out of the house.
My kids have flown with me and enjoy it but truth be told...they'd rather
have a boat (my wife would too). Which clearly means...this is for me.

Flying is a luxury item for most of us, and at a minimum it is costly.
Catch a run of bad luck, and it can be ridiculously expensive. Flying
is one of the most amazing experiences in the world, and can add value
to your family (weekend vacations with the family, in and out business
trips vs. overnight stays) but it can also destroy a marriage if the
costs get out of hand and the family gets (or feels) shortchanged just
so the plane can keep flying. This can also work the other way - if
money is tight, most of us would make the correct decision of spending
the money on the family. However, that may mean an expensive airplane
sitting unused in the hangar, along with the fixed monthly costs of
insurance, hangar, and the eventual annual inspection looming.

If there is a possibility that finances could be tight in the future,
pilots are much better off renting or joining a flying club... That
greatly reduces if not eliminates the risk of having a massive one
time expense, and it also allows a graceful (and no cost) exit if
postponement of flying should be required.

-Nathan