dropped in D

(Nathan Young) wrote in message . com...
Interesting thread. I am curious to see what others think.

I have always assumed that VFR flight following does not provide
transition services to facilities that aren't on their field. Hence,
I would have called McEntire's Class D.

I guess I was assuming that since Shaw Approach provides approach
functions for Mc Entire, that I was OK having two way communications
with Shaw Approach (or that Shaw Approach would tell me when to switch
if I needed to switch). I guess that's what I get for assuming!!

I run into this getting flight following around the OHare Bravo, and
crossing through DuPage's Class D. I always suggest to the approach
controller that I get a freq change to call DuPage tower, and then
give him/her a call on the other side. It works out well as Dupage is
roughly the boundary between OHare's SW approach (133.50) and North
approach (120.55). So it is like a handoff, but with a few minutes
talking to DuPage tower between approach controllers.

That sounds like a good plan for the future! I may have just been too
used to ATC suggesting frequency changes vs. me having to suggest the
change.

Arden

Arden Prinz wrote:
(Nathan Young) wrote in message . com...
Interesting thread. I am curious to see what others think.
I have always assumed that VFR flight following does not provide
transition services to facilities that aren't on their field.

You assume wrong. They are supposed to.

I guess I was assuming that since Shaw Approach provides approach
functions for Mc Entire, that I was OK having two way communications
with Shaw Approach (or that Shaw Approach would tell me when to switch
if I needed to switch).

You assumed rightly. That's how it's supposed to work.

I run into this getting flight following around the OHare Bravo, and
crossing through DuPage's Class D.

I've heard this before about these specific facilities, but that's
not how it's supposed to work. If you have radar services, they're
supposed to coordinate the class D transition.

Cheers,
Sydney

"Arden Prinz" wrote in message
m...

I guess I was assuming that since Shaw Approach provides approach
functions for Mc Entire, that I was OK having two way communications
with Shaw Approach (or that Shaw Approach would tell me when to switch
if I needed to switch). I guess that's what I get for assuming!!


Shaw approach is required to coordinate the transition, it's not an option.
If they fail to coordinate the transition it's their error, not yours.

Nathan Young wrote:

If so, what action should I have taken?


Take them up on their suggestion to call the next radar facility. You
do not suddenly lose your transition rights because you got terminated.



I have always assumed that VFR flight following does not provide
transition services to facilities that aren't on their field.

You're wrong, it does.


Hence,
I would have called McEntire's Class D.

A courtesy call wouldn't hurt.



I run into this getting flight following around the OHare Bravo, and
crossing through DuPage's Class D. I always suggest to the approach
controller that I get a freq change to call DuPage tower, and then
give him/her a call on the other side.

Total waste of time.

the middle of Mc Entire class D airspace, Shaw approach gave me "radar
services terminated, squawk VFR, for further flight following suggest
you contact Columbia approach on 133.4". Hmmmm.... Doesn't this mean
that the instant after he terminated me, that I was not in two-way
communication with the ATC facility (and unintentionally in violation

Most likely he had already given a call to the class D
tower and coordinated your transition as he would with IFR traffic.

of 91.129(c)(1))? If so, what action should I have taken? Honestly,

He didn't say he won't accept any further radio calls from you, did he?
Did he say "freq change approved"? Anyway, the action is quite obvious -
you should have called him again with a request for clarification,
because you didn't fully understand his intentions
(smth like "please confirm we do not need to call the ... tower").
"When in doubt, ask"

(Vassilii Khachaturov) wrote in message . com...
the middle of Mc Entire class D airspace, Shaw approach gave me "radar
services terminated, squawk VFR, for further flight following suggest
you contact Columbia approach on 133.4". Hmmmm.... Doesn't this mean
that the instant after he terminated me, that I was not in two-way
communication with the ATC facility (and unintentionally in violation

Most likely he had already given a call to the class D
tower and coordinated your transition as he would with IFR traffic.

Perhaps, but I'm not sure how that impacts my requirement to
have/maintain two way communication.

of 91.129(c)(1))? If so, what action should I have taken? Honestly,

He didn't say he won't accept any further radio calls from you, did he?

The Shaw approach controller didn't say that, but did suggest that I
contact Columbia approach and obviously Shaw wouldn't be able to
contact me as soon as I started trying to contact Columbia approach.

Did he say "freq change approved"? Anyway, the action is quite obvious -
you should have called him again with a request for clarification,
because you didn't fully understand his intentions
(smth like "please confirm we do not need to call the ... tower").
"When in doubt, ask"

The Shaw approach controller's instruction was clear and what I did
was to take his suggestion and contact the Columbia approach
controller. But I agree that I should have asked for clarification.
Thanks for the suggestion.

Arden

"Arden Prinz" wrote in message
m...

Perhaps, but I'm not sure how that impacts my requirement to
have/maintain two way communication.


You were relieved of the requirements of FAR 91.129(c)(1) in accordance with
FAR 91.129(a).


§ 91.129 Operations in Class D airspace.

(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized or required by the ATC facility
having jurisdiction over the Class D airspace area, each person operating an
aircraft in Class D airspace must comply with the applicable provisions of
this section. In addition, each person must comply with §§ 91.126 and
91.127. For the purpose of this section, the primary airport is the airport
for which the Class D airspace area is designated. A satellite airport is
any other airport within the Class D airspace area.

"Vassilii Khachaturov" wrote in message
om...

Most likely he had already given a call to the class D
tower and coordinated your transition as he would with IFR traffic.


Remember, this is not an arrival, but a through flight. Would it be likely
for through IFR traffic to be that low that the controller would normally
provide such coordination for a through IFR flight. I'm thinking that would
be quite unusual.

"When in doubt, ask"

Agree 100%.


--

Bob
PP-ASEL-IA, A/IGI

"Robert Henry" wrote in message
news:bihYa.26631$5f.4102@lakeread05...

Remember, this is not an arrival, but a through flight. Would it be
likely for through IFR traffic to be that low that the controller would
normally provide such coordination for a through IFR flight. I'm
thinking that would be quite unusual.


The lowest practical enroute IFR altitude tends to be the MIA/MVA plus 1000
feet rounded up to the next cardinal altitude. That tends to be more than
2500 AGL and thus above typical Class D airspace.

"Arden Prinz" wrote in message
om...

I recently made a flight from Sumter, SC (SMS) to Columbia Metro
(CAE). Just after takeoff from Sumter, I contacted Shaw AFB approach,
told the controller that I was going to Columbia Metro, and got flight
following. Between Shaw class C airspace and Columbia class C
airspace there is Mc Entire ANGS class D airspace. As I approached Mc
Entire airspace, I figured that I was OK to enter because I had
established two-way communications with Shaw approach.


You were correct. A radar controller is required to coordinate the
transition of Class D airspace with the control tower when providing radar
traffic advisories. You are not expected to contact the tower yourself.


FAA Order 7110.65N Air traffic Control

Chapter 2. General Control

Section 1. General

2-1-16. SURFACE AREAS

a. Coordinate with the appropriate nonapproach control tower on an
individual aircraft basis before issuing a clearance which would require
flight within a surface area for which the tower has responsibility unless
otherwise specified in a letter of agreement.

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7210.3, Letters of Agreement, Para 4-3-1.
14 CFR Section 91.127, Operating on or in the Vicinity of an Airport in
Class E Airspace.
P/CG Term- Surface Area.

b. Coordinate with the appropriate control tower for transit authorization
when you are providing radar traffic advisory service to an aircraft that
will enter another facility's airspace.

NOTE-
The pilot is not expected to obtain his/her own authorization through each
area when in contact with a radar facility.

c. Transfer communications to the appropriate facility, if required, prior
to operation within a surface area for which the tower has responsibility.

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Radio Communications Transfer, Para 2-1-17.
FAAO 7110.65, Surface Area Restrictions, Para 3-1-11.
FAAO 7110.65, Application, Para 7-6-1.
14 CFR Section 91.129, Operations in Class D Airspace.



After I got in
the middle of Mc Entire class D airspace, Shaw approach gave me "radar
services terminated, squawk VFR, for further flight following suggest
you contact Columbia approach on 133.4". Hmmmm.... Doesn't this mean
that the instant after he terminated me, that I was not in two-way
communication with the ATC facility (and unintentionally in violation
of 91.129(c)(1))?


No, it doesn't. Note that FAR 91.129(a) begins with "Unless otherwise
authorized...".


§ 91.129 Operations in Class D airspace.

(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized or required by the ATC facility
having jurisdiction over the Class D airspace area, each person operating an
aircraft in Class D airspace must comply with the applicable provisions of
this section. In addition, each person must comply with §§ 91.126 and
91.127. For the purpose of this section, the primary airport is the airport
for which the Class D airspace area is designated. A satellite airport is
any other airport within the Class D airspace area.



If so, what action should I have taken? Honestly,
I would have expected a handoff to either the Mc Entire tower
controller or to the Columbia approach controller, as opposed to a
"...suggest you contact...".

Also, 91.129(d) says "Each person who operates an aircraft in a class
D airspace area must maintain two-way radio communications with the
ATC facility having jurisdiction over that area." Where is "..the ATC
facility having jurisdiction over that area" defined?


I've never seen an explicit definition.



For example,
for the Mc Entire class D airspace, is this just the Mc Entire tower,
or do Shaw approach and Columbia approach also have jurisdiction over
that area?


Unless delegated some authority from the overlying IFR facility, (Center or
approach control) VFR towers don't actually have any real authority over
airspace. About all they can do is require arriving VFR aircraft to remain
outside.