Landing a warrior

I am a 130 hour PP, and the bulk of my time is in various cessnas (152s and
172's) I've always thought myself decent at landing

Until now. I've recently joined a flying club that has a c182 and a warrior.
My my last 20 or so hours are in the warrior. I bet I 've gotten as few as
5 landings that I'm proud of in that time. Nothing dangerous, just massive
floating, followed by clunking it in with maybe even a bounce or 2. Usually
just one. I'm aware of the inhanced ground effect present in a low-wing
plane. I fly my aproaches at around 65 knots with the second noch of flaps.
I seem to have similar struggles with no and full flaps.

Again, these are all landings that my passengers think are great. I'm just
used to getting great results in the cessnas, and wish to do the same in the
warrior.

Dan Moos wrote:
Until now. I've recently joined a flying club that has a c182 and a warrior.
My my last 20 or so hours are in the warrior. I bet I 've gotten as few as
5 landings that I'm proud of in that time. Nothing dangerous, just massive
floating, followed by clunking it in with maybe even a bounce or 2. Usually
just one. I'm aware of the inhanced ground effect present in a low-wing
plane. I fly my aproaches at around 65 knots with the second noch of flaps.
I seem to have similar struggles with no and full flaps.

You didn't mention if you are doing power-on or power-off approaches. In
a Warrior, unless you are following other traffic around the pattern,
your approaches should all be power off.

If you are floating, you are too fast.
1.3Vso is fine coming down final, but by the time you get to the runway
threshold, you need to have bled the airspeed off to about five knots
above stall. Holding pitch attitude as the airspeed bleeds off will
allow the aircraft to settle predictably onto the runway. Continue to
hold the nose off the runway until the elevator loses effectiveness
unless you are braking for short field landings. Braking will cause the
nose wheel to slam onto the runway.

You didn't mention if you are doing power-on or power-off approaches. In
a Warrior, unless you are following other traffic around the pattern,
your approaches should all be power off.

???

I don't think I ever landed our Warrior power off, in the 450 hours we put
on her...even on short fields.

Carry a little power into the flare -- you'll be amazed at the greasers you
can pull off!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

I always carry a little power in my PA28-140 into the landing, but there are
definitely two schools of thought about this. Whatever side of the debate
you fall on, I think everyone will agree that you should occasionally
practice the power-off variant for the day when murphy is your copilot.

I trained exclusively in C-172's, then transitioned to a rental warrior, as
well as a 182RG, then finally purchased my 140. I had the hardest time
learning to land in the 140! Here's my observations:

- you sit lower in cherokees, this will fool you a few times if you're used
to skyhawks
- with full flaps, the hershey bar cherokees come down like a brick. if
you're going power-off, use a steeper approach.
- i approach between 65 and 70 in my cherokee, whereas skyhawks are quite
comfortable at 60. slower landings in a cherokee with full flaps are hard
to squeak (at least for me). this seems to be a feature of the hershey bar
as I never had this problem in the warrior.
- floating: i actually had more problems floating in the 172 than the
warrior, go figure. in the 140, any floating will come from excess
airspeed. it seems to be easier (for me), to stick in a short landing using
power-off with a steep approach.

For what it's worth, it seems hard to make a great or terrible landing in
the cherokee. Most of my landings are average with the occasional clunker
and the occasional greaser.

mark

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:ZCS_a.146353$YN5.95317@sccrnsc01...
You didn't mention if you are doing power-on or power-off approaches. In
a Warrior, unless you are following other traffic around the pattern,
your approaches should all be power off.

???

I don't think I ever landed our Warrior power off, in the 450 hours we put
on her...even on short fields.

Carry a little power into the flare -- you'll be amazed at the greasers
you
can pull off!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

As a CFI I've done a few privates in the Warrior. Its one of my
favorite planes and I'd take it over a 172 any day. It sounds like
your landings are too fast. Slow it down a bit more and you'll kill
some of the float. Killing the float will help prevent you from
flaring too high since the flare will mesh better with the approach.
That should get rid of the clunking. At worse, it doesn't sound like
anything that couldn't be fixed with an hour of dual. Also, make sure
when you do drop it in, pull the elevator back to the stops, don't
smash that nose wheel, they are very fragile.

-Robert, CFI



"Dan Moos" wrote in message ...
I am a 130 hour PP, and the bulk of my time is in various cessnas (152s and
172's) I've always thought myself decent at landing

Until now. I've recently joined a flying club that has a c182 and a warrior.
My my last 20 or so hours are in the warrior. I bet I 've gotten as few as
5 landings that I'm proud of in that time. Nothing dangerous, just massive
floating, followed by clunking it in with maybe even a bounce or 2. Usually
just one. I'm aware of the inhanced ground effect present in a low-wing
plane. I fly my aproaches at around 65 knots with the second noch of flaps.
I seem to have similar struggles with no and full flaps.

Again, these are all landings that my passengers think are great. I'm just
used to getting great results in the cessnas, and wish to do the same in the
warrior.

My Warrior book says 63 knots, but who's counting? Why not full flaps???? I
have a zillion hours instructing in Cherokees/Warriors and I can't remember
ever teaching a student to use two notches for landing.

Bob Gardner

"Dan Moos" wrote in message
...
I am a 130 hour PP, and the bulk of my time is in various cessnas (152s
and
172's) I've always thought myself decent at landing

Until now. I've recently joined a flying club that has a c182 and a
warrior.
My my last 20 or so hours are in the warrior. I bet I 've gotten as few
as
5 landings that I'm proud of in that time. Nothing dangerous, just massive
floating, followed by clunking it in with maybe even a bounce or 2.
Usually
just one. I'm aware of the inhanced ground effect present in a low-wing
plane. I fly my aproaches at around 65 knots with the second noch of
flaps.
I seem to have similar struggles with no and full flaps.

Again, these are all landings that my passengers think are great. I'm just
used to getting great results in the cessnas, and wish to do the same in
the
warrior.

My Warrior book says 63 knots, but who's counting? Why not full flaps????
I
have a zillion hours instructing in Cherokees/Warriors and I can't
remember
ever teaching a student to use two notches for landing.

The only time to use two notches is (a) in strong cross winds or (b) in
squirrelly high winds.

While it's not necessary, two notches give you a flatter, slightly faster
approach that lets you "bust through" the cross wind or wind shear a bit
better than the steeper, slower full-flaps approach...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Well, I've graduated a lot of students over the years, and to the best of my
knowledge none of them has ever had a landing accident. Normal landings are
full-flap landings, even in a crosswind...minimum touchdown speed is the
key, with anti-xwind controls. Page 5-24 of my Warrior book ("Landing
Performance") is predicated on full flaps, power off, and max braking. The
chart is NOT labeled "short field landing." Page 4-14, under normal
procedures for approach and landing, hedges a bit...still calls for full
flaps and 63, but allows as how enough power should be carried to maintain
the desired speed and approach path (no argument there). No mention of
crosswind technique, but when Boeing Field had a 60 degree xwind at 15-20
knots or so I would call my students and say "Come on down....we're gonna do
some full-flap crosswind landings."

You can do lots of things in a low-wing airplane that would be questionable
in a high-wing airplane.

Did I mention that I was an examiner when I worked at the Piper FBO?

Bob Gardner


"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:TFS_a.146359$YN5.95266@sccrnsc01...
My Warrior book says 63 knots, but who's counting? Why not full
flaps????
I
have a zillion hours instructing in Cherokees/Warriors and I can't
remember
ever teaching a student to use two notches for landing.

The only time to use two notches is (a) in strong cross winds or (b) in
squirrelly high winds.

While it's not necessary, two notches give you a flatter, slightly faster
approach that lets you "bust through" the cross wind or wind shear a bit
better than the steeper, slower full-flaps approach...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Bob, you must have known my flight instructor. I started my flight
training in warriors in 1984 in Ocean City, NJ. I think they widened
the runway since then. There was almost always a healthy crosswind.
Landings were full flaps just as you describe. Crosswind technique
was crab, then slip and land on the upwind wheel, with full flaps.
Third notch after established on final. I never understood why in a
crosswind people want to go faster. I guess it's whatever you're
comfortable with. Despite my best efforts, I'm still a renter and I
always try to land as slow as safely possible to help wear and tear on
the tired old birds I fly.
Dave
"Bob Gardner" wrote in message news:2mW_a.145947$o%2.62355@sccrnsc02...
Well, I've graduated a lot of students over the years, and to the best of my
knowledge none of them has ever had a landing accident. Normal landings are
full-flap landings, even in a crosswind...minimum touchdown speed is the
key, with anti-xwind controls. Page 5-24 of my Warrior book ("Landing
Performance") is predicated on full flaps, power off, and max braking. The
chart is NOT labeled "short field landing." Page 4-14, under normal
procedures for approach and landing, hedges a bit...still calls for full
flaps and 63, but allows as how enough power should be carried to maintain
the desired speed and approach path (no argument there). No mention of
crosswind technique, but when Boeing Field had a 60 degree xwind at 15-20
knots or so I would call my students and say "Come on down....we're gonna do
some full-flap crosswind landings."

You can do lots of things in a low-wing airplane that would be questionable
in a high-wing airplane.

Did I mention that I was an examiner when I worked at the Piper FBO?

Bob Gardner

On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 20:54:11 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
wrote:

My Warrior book says 63 knots, but who's counting? Why not full flaps????
I
have a zillion hours instructing in Cherokees/Warriors and I can't
remember
ever teaching a student to use two notches for landing.

The only time to use two notches is (a) in strong cross winds or (b) in
squirrelly high winds.


I used full flaps regardless. It's what I was taught and it always
worked well. OTOH that approach may not be for everyone...At that
time the instructors here used the same as the FAA at the time.."If
yah got 'em, use 'em".

Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)

While it's not necessary, two notches give you a flatter, slightly faster
approach that lets you "bust through" the cross wind or wind shear a bit
better than the steeper, slower full-flaps approach...