Flying Freight / Cargo for hire???

"Mark S Conway" wrote in message news:BCTVb.257698$I06.2780928@attbi_s01...

I'm a painting contractor, interior / exterior.....
A friend owns a quick lube / tire place.....
He said he would pay me $7.00 per tire to bring them over to him...

Since the tire place does not own the aircraft, you would be "holding
out to others" (119.3, "noncommon carriage") and performing an
"all-cargo operation" (119.3), and would require an air carrier
certificate (119.5(a)).

Mark,


If i had a single customer or a select few, i guess it would be ok..

No, it would make no difference how many customers you had. It is an
operation for hire and not legal under Part 91. If the customer pays
you anything to carry something, it is a for hire operation. Please
go read FAR Part 119 carefully before you get yourself in a jam.

All the best,
Rick

Been a while, but maybe.....

1.1 Commercial operator means a person who, for compensation or hire,
engages in the carriage by aircraft in air commerce of persons or
property, other than as an air carrier or foreign air carrier or under
the authority of Part 375 of this title. Where it is doubtful that an
operation is for ``compensation or hire'', the test applied is whether
the carriage by air is merely incidental to the person's other business
or is, in itself, a major enterprise for profit.

91.501(b)

119.21(a)5

119.23(b)






"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
Brian, could you elaborate, please? I just re-read 119.1 and could not
find
any statement restricting freight ops to commercial operators.

Thanks,
Gary

"Brien K. Meehan" wrote in message om...
"Mark S Conway" wrote in message news:BCTVb.257698$I06.2780928@attbi_s01...

I'm a painting contractor, interior / exterior.....
A friend owns a quick lube / tire place.....
He said he would pay me $7.00 per tire to bring them over to him...

Since the tire place does not own the aircraft, you would be "holding
out to others" (119.3, "noncommon carriage")

Holding out is common carriage. Any solicitation of business, no matter
how small the market is holding out.

There's an AC 120-12A on the subject.

Uh, this guy I knew once flew up to Alaska and landed his airplane on
a private strip near a lake. The guy taking care of the closed hunting
lodge made a deal with him. If the pilot would go get some steaks and
beer, the caretaker would let him stay in the lodge for a couple of
nights. So he dutifully went back to the nearest town, loaded up on
beer and steak, and got to enjoy the lake and lodge.

I guess it was a commercial operation, but it sure wasn't part 135. In
some ways it was a humanitarian flight, as the caretaker was SICK of
eating trout and moose meat, but most of all he NEEDED beer. So
obviously there is THAT to consider as well. And after all, it WAS
Alaska. I hope the FAA understands these fine points, I'm sure I
don't.

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
. ..
Holding out is common carriage. Any solicitation of business, no matter
how small the market is holding out.

There's an AC 120-12A on the subject.

You should read it. It specifically contradicts your claim that "any
solicitation of business, no matter how small the market is holding out".

In particular, it stipulates that maintaining as few as three contracts has
been held to be private carriage, not common. Unfortunately, it doesn't go
so far as to tell us exactly how many contracts put you over the common
carriage boundary, but from the AC we do know that it's somewhere between
three at the low end and eighteen to twenty-four on the high end.

I agree that open solicitation to no particular individual would be "holding
out". But having a friend to whom you offer your services, and offering
them ONLY to that friend is definitely private carriage. Just because a
pilot proposes the operation does not mean the operation is common. The
determining factor is how the proposal is made, and to what extent it is
extended to the general public.

Your interpretation sounds a lot like the private pilot restriction against
taking friends flying when they ask you to, but these are completely
different issues.

There remains open the question of whether private carriage is also subject
to 119 and related rules, or if it can be done under Part 91. Some here
have argued that even private carriage needs to be done under Part 135 or
121, but I have yet to see a convincing argument to that effect. That is, I
have seen no reference that clearly says that.

IMHO, either the difference in private and common carriage is important, in
which case the AC to which you refer clearly shows that Mark can move tires
for his friend for pay, or the difference is NOT important, in which case I
feel that the FAA is doing us all a disservice by making us worry about
what's private and what's common (even to the point of writing a detailed AC
about the subject!)

Pete

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message ...
"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
. ..
Holding out is common carriage. Any solicitation of business, no matter
how small the market is holding out.

There's an AC 120-12A on the subject.

You should read it. It specifically contradicts your claim that "any
solicitation of business, no matter how small the market is holding out".

In particular, it stipulates that maintaining as few as three contracts has
been held to be private carriage, not common.

I have read it. Now you go back and read carefully what I said.
"Soliciting to a small market" is what I said. Holding out doesn't
have to mean the offer is extended to the general public. I was
commenting on Brien's (the post I was immediately following up)
odd statement that "Since the tire place does not own the aircraft, you would
be 'holding out to others.'" Which we would both agree isn't true.


A point I didn't make, but the AC does, is that going after new contracts
also puts you on the edge of being in common carriage.


Your interpretation sounds a lot like the private pilot restriction against
taking friends flying when they ask you to, but these are completely
different issues.

Not intended to sound anything like it

There remains open the question of whether private carriage is also subject
to 119 and related rules, or if it can be done under Part 91. Some here
have argued that even private carriage needs to be done under Part 135 or
121, but I have yet to see a convincing argument to that effect.

There are certain private carriages (larger aircraft) that must play the part 119
game, but in general no.

Guys, this is crazy!!!!!

Now, i was told by a 135 operation here in Nantucket...
I fly from Cape Cod to Nantucket every day for work...
I could get 3 other people, an electrician, a carpenter and a
plumber... and charge them $50.00 round trip everyday AND DO IT PART 91
!!!!!
Because i have chosen a select few people... i can do it!!!!
Or even select 5 people and whoever shows up that day .. fine...
But i cannot advertise or HOLD OUT.... just a select few....

WHAT'S THE DEAL...

THIS IS CRAZY!!!!

Mark

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message ...

Since the tire place does not own the aircraft, you would be "holding
out to others" (119.3, "noncommon carriage")

Holding out is common carriage.

Yes, that's my point.

Doug wrote:

I hope the FAA understands these fine points, I'm sure I don't.

Just don't tell the FAA your friend's name.

George Patterson
Love, n.: A form of temporary insanity afflicting the young. It is curable
either by marriage or by removal of the afflicted from the circumstances
under which he incurred the condition. It is sometimes fatal, but more
often to the physician than to the patient.