Position and Hold at uncontrolled field

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...

Are you saying that some other aircraft is going to land before the first
has cleared the runway?


Not a good idea when an airplane is holding on the runway, but there's
nothing wrong with landing behind another landing aircraft.

Hmm.. gliders, uncontrolled field and meatbombs over a dry lake.. sure
sounds like Boulder City, Nevada...

Dave

BTIZ wrote:
Or calling departure, liftoff, crosswind, turning downwind, downwind
abeam the numbers, base, final, over the threshold, leaving the
runway, clear the runway, ...

And always like this:

"Uh, um, Podunk Traffic, aahhhh...Cessna...Cessna November One Two
Three Four Pa-pa uhhhh Victor aaahhh....turning...downwind....uuhhhh,
Podunk uhhh Airport. I mean Traffic."


and by the time they get through all that.. I've entered the pattern on the
opposite side to a parallel runway.. and landed and cleared.. without a
word...

BECAUSE I COULD NOT GET A WORD IN BETWEEN ALL OF HIS RADIO CALLS AND
EVERYONE ELSE IN HIS PATTERN FOLLOWING HIS ****POOR EXAMPLE

"Glider tow clear, 20L"

Oh, and the local flight school uses the same CTAF freq to broadcast their
training positions and altitudes over a near by dry (right now wet) lake
bed.. it is within 5 miles of the airport, but outside the traffic pattern..
and then all the other "transient" calls made by pilots flying the highway..
IFR (I follow roads) well above the traffic pattern altitude...

but they know or do not know that there are gliders in the area.. its to
early in the day for lift to go that high... 50% of which don't carry
radios.. and there is an active jump zone 4 miles south.. but if they'd shut
up they could hear if the jump zone was active or not..

::: stepping down off radio discipline soapbox :::
BT

Is there a nice way for you to point out that 123.3 is designated for flight
school use?

Bob Gardner

"BTIZ" wrote in message
news:NeA_b.6214$aZ3.5471@fed1read04...
Or calling departure, liftoff, crosswind, turning downwind, downwind
abeam the numbers, base, final, over the threshold, leaving the
runway, clear the runway, ...

And always like this:

"Uh, um, Podunk Traffic, aahhhh...Cessna...Cessna November One Two
Three Four Pa-pa uhhhh Victor aaahhh....turning...downwind....uuhhhh,
Podunk uhhh Airport. I mean Traffic."

and by the time they get through all that.. I've entered the pattern on
the
opposite side to a parallel runway.. and landed and cleared.. without a
word...

BECAUSE I COULD NOT GET A WORD IN BETWEEN ALL OF HIS RADIO CALLS AND
EVERYONE ELSE IN HIS PATTERN FOLLOWING HIS ****POOR EXAMPLE

"Glider tow clear, 20L"

Oh, and the local flight school uses the same CTAF freq to broadcast their
training positions and altitudes over a near by dry (right now wet) lake
bed.. it is within 5 miles of the airport, but outside the traffic
pattern..
and then all the other "transient" calls made by pilots flying the
highway..
IFR (I follow roads) well above the traffic pattern altitude...

but they know or do not know that there are gliders in the area.. its to
early in the day for lift to go that high... 50% of which don't carry
radios.. and there is an active jump zone 4 miles south.. but if they'd
shut
up they could hear if the jump zone was active or not..

::: stepping down off radio discipline soapbox :::
BT

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...

Are you saying that some other aircraft is going to land before the first
has cleared the runway?


What, you wouldn't? Why should I wait for someone to clear the runway
if there is enough room for me to land behind him?

"Newps" wrote in message
news:6wM_b.396854$na.764749@attbi_s04...
What, you wouldn't? Why should I wait for someone to clear the runway
if there is enough room for me to land behind him?

The same reason you take more fuel than the bare minimum, that you clear
obstacles by more than the bare minimum, and start your takeoff roll with
more than the bare minimum of required runway remaining.

It's hard enough to ensure that you will not make any mistakes while
landing, but you don't have any idea what sort of mechanical problems might
occur, such as brake failure. Or, you might have to make a go around at the
last minute that puts the other aircraft right in your way. There's all
sorts of reasons the landing might not go exactly as you expect it to. Why
reduce or eliminate your safety margin when there's absolutely no good
reason to?

The day you attempt to land while someone is still on the runway, and you
find that you can't avoid running into them, you'll understand why you
should wait.

Pete

"Dale" wrote in message
...
In article ,
dave wrote:

I was returning to LOM today and after one plane had landed but not yet
cleared the runway, a pilot at the approach end announced "position and
hold". He taxied into position and waited for the previous aircraft to
clear the runway. He then made a normal departure. I was taught at
uncontrolled fields to never take the runway unless you can depart
promptly. Why? In case an aircraft is landing that you aren't aware
of. You may not be aware of the aircraft because he doesn't have a
radio, he called and you didn't hear him, you can't see him, etc.

Is this a new training technique to get students ready for controlled
fields? Most everybody has a radio at my home field but I fly into
fields where many pilots don't have or don't use their radio.

If the guy went position and hold to do his runup would be one thing.
But getting into position as other traffic is clearing isn't a big deal.
It's only a few seconds, not much different than taxiing out and
departing as far as risk of being hit by the blind pilot on final. By
getting out on the runway he's making the runway available sooner for
landing traffic. Good thinking on his part.

Tend to agree and it lets the clearing traffic know someone wants to go. As
a matter of course I always tell when I have vacated the runway. I often fly
from a strip with a hump and a plane can disappear over the hump and unless
the pilot radios that he is clear, the only option for the departing pilot
is to wait to see him reappear on the taxiway.

When the tower is working no problem, but when its closed it needs all
pilots to consider the needs of others.

On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 07:15:48 -0800, C J Campbell wrote:



Remember that there are a lot of student pilots and low time pilots who have
a hard time learning to use the radios. Not everybody can be as crisp and
laconic as a 10,000 hour airline captain. Jumping on some guy who is having
trouble anyway is not helpful and simply ties up the radios even more while
you all argue over it.

One of the hardest things I have to do as an instructor is not jump in and
'help' my student on the radios or make his radio calls for him.

Instead of criticizing how others use the radios, concentrate on improving
your own radio habits and decision making.

How 'bout the FBO that insists on welcoming every new plane and arranging
cars, taxis, hotels, sightseeing tours, evening entertainment, restaurant
reservations, parking, catering, grocery shopping, outlet mall
suggestions ......while students and other planes are in the pattern,
instead of a quick message to switch over to the ARINC freq.

Sorry, just my local pet peeve.

--
Rick/JYO
PP-ASEL-IA
remove 'nospam' to reply

Oh, you've flown to Block Island.

"Rick Glasser" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 07:15:48 -0800, C J Campbell wrote:



Remember that there are a lot of student pilots and low time pilots who
have
a hard time learning to use the radios. Not everybody can be as crisp
and
laconic as a 10,000 hour airline captain. Jumping on some guy who is
having
trouble anyway is not helpful and simply ties up the radios even more
while
you all argue over it.

One of the hardest things I have to do as an instructor is not jump in
and
'help' my student on the radios or make his radio calls for him.

Instead of criticizing how others use the radios, concentrate on
improving
your own radio habits and decision making.

How 'bout the FBO that insists on welcoming every new plane and arranging
cars, taxis, hotels, sightseeing tours, evening entertainment, restaurant
reservations, parking, catering, grocery shopping, outlet mall
suggestions ......while students and other planes are in the pattern,
instead of a quick message to switch over to the ARINC freq.

Sorry, just my local pet peeve.

--
Rick/JYO
PP-ASEL-IA
remove 'nospam' to reply

Have seen too often to count.

Big John


On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 07:17:54 -0800, "C J Campbell"
wrote:


"dave" wrote in message
...
I was returning to LOM today and after one plane had landed but not yet
cleared the runway, a pilot at the approach end announced "position and
hold". He taxied into position and waited for the previous aircraft to
clear the runway. He then made a normal departure. I was taught at
uncontrolled fields to never take the runway unless you can depart
promptly. Why? In case an aircraft is landing that you aren't aware
of. You may not be aware of the aircraft because he doesn't have a
radio, he called and you didn't hear him, you can't see him, etc.


Are you saying that some other aircraft is going to land before the first
has cleared the runway?

I'm not critizing anyone for poor radio technique. I got my private at
an uncontrolled strip, 9n1 and my IFR at PNE. I felt like a complete
idiot when I first started flying at PNE. I still make plenty of
mistakes. I'm not even concerned about radio use, just worried about
someone taking the active for no good reason. When your ready to go,
say your intentions, taxi out and go.

dave
68 7ECA




C J Campbell wrote:

"Jeff" wrote in message
...

LOL...a couple of months ago nellis approach almost let me fly into a

mountain

because some guy from utah here for xmas shopping, flying out, I was right

behind

him, was doing that on the radio, ummm hhmmm mmmmummm and so on, I almost

told him

to spit it out and shut up but he wouldnt stop talking!
finally as I am nearing the mountain getting ready to make the decision to

deviate

from my course ATC had me on, he shut up and let me ask to make my turn.

I hate it when people just dont spit out what they have to say .



Remember that there are a lot of student pilots and low time pilots who have
a hard time learning to use the radios. Not everybody can be as crisp and
laconic as a 10,000 hour airline captain. Jumping on some guy who is having
trouble anyway is not helpful and simply ties up the radios even more while
you all argue over it.

One of the hardest things I have to do as an instructor is not jump in and
'help' my student on the radios or make his radio calls for him.

Instead of criticizing how others use the radios, concentrate on improving
your own radio habits and decision making.