Help needed at Mifflin.

For comic relief... gif of an exploding wind turbine.
http://img.ifcdn.com/images/2e936036...b74f5854_1.gif

On Monday, October 7, 2013 1:21:34 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
Could we make an effort to keep Partisan Bickering off of RAS?

You started on that path yourself yesterday.

wrote, On 10/7/2013 10:52 AM:
On Sunday, October 6, 2013 9:01:33 AM UTC-6, KS wrote:
Two companies are planning the installation of wind turbines on top
of Jacks Mt near the Mifflin County Airport where contests have
been held for 23 years. Ridge running on Jacks is vital to the
success of soaring at Mifflin and these devices would eliminate an
essential part of the soaring activity. See
http://mifflin.ridgesewing.com/Jacks.htm for a further link to
information which will show a picture of what the wind farm would
look like and a request for letters/e-mails to help thwart this
project. Thanks for your help. Karl Striedieck PS Send this on to
those who might not follow ras but could help.

I'm all for saving a great soaring site. As for bird mortality,
please. Picture windows and automobiles cause orders of magnitude
more mortality that wind farms. Perhaps you'd care to give those up
too?

There may be a better argument than that. My understanding is the bird
species killed by ridge sited wind turbines are quite different from
those killed by windows and cars - generally, species that are more
desirable and have smaller populations, so the effect of the kills is
more severe.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

Sean F (F2) wrote, On 10/7/2013 7:34 AM:
Tens of thousands on INNOCENT BIRDS are dying each and every day!

How about just the best link that provides evidence for this? I've been
to wind turbine sites and not seen any dead birds, so it sounds exaggerated.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

On Monday, October 7, 2013 4:34:57 PM UTC+2, Sean F (F2) wrote:
Probably 30 amps... Enough to keep itself aligned into the wind and to adjust the blade pitch (X 100's of turbines in each farm). The motors required to manage those tasks are not small! Nor is the power required to run those motors and manage the electronics required to operate the systems. If you ever stand near one while they are stopped and trying to re-"spin" you learn that they are working fairly hard, constantly adjusting the blade heading and blade angle. Even while running in a strong wind, the turbine makes many corrections each minute in blade pitch and probably in turbine drag. All requiring significant power. Also, the turbine only engages and produce net power once a certain amount of blade speed (net power) is achieved. This speed is higher than most realize. So, even all the alignment and blade changes at low speed are also from power being sucked off the grid. In other words, at low speed the blade is just free wheeling with no power being produced. We have a huge "windfarm" to the NE of Ionia near Alma Michigan. We fly over it often. Probably 150 - 200 generators. Personally, I refer to this region as the field of death" or the "bird scrambler farm"! The ground around them is literally littered with dead birds. I would fear greatly for the soaring birds in the Mifflin habitat. Were is the EPA on this one? Hmmm? Sure, its a big problem when you endanger the spotted owl (in any capitalist endeavor)...but when hundreds of hawks and other birds are ensured of a brutal inhumane death every month per wind turbine blade strikes its overlooked because its a liberal project. Enjoy the death of birds at the hand of green energy liberals below: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwVz5hdAMGU http://singletrackworld.com/forum/to...cifixes/page/2 http://now.msn.com/bird-hits-wind-tu...lled-instantly http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...twitchers.html https://www.google.com/search?q=bird...ih=62 9&dpr=2 The horror of liberals and their wind turbines are very real for soaring birds. Liberals, where are you on this one? Hmmmm? Tens of thousands on INNOCENT BIRDS are dying each and every day! Their blood is on your hands!

Sean,

thanks for your enlightening and education! Is all your wisdom based on true insight knowledge, i.e. you worked in the industry and have climbed countless turbines, etc. or did you just Google the issue and then re-post all the bit & pieces which support your point of view? Perhaps you stayed at a Holiday-Inn Express last night. ;-) Remember - you cannot believe everything on the internet - that's how WW-1 got started!
As an FYI - I work in designing and repairing wind turbines for a good number of years, so here we go:
Enough to keep itself aligned into the wind and to adjust the blade pitch
Correct. That way, the turbine can get back on-line at a moments notice, once the wind picks up to above cut-in speed.
The motors required to manage those tasks are not small
Wrong - these motors have a rating of a few kW and they are in operation a few seconds at a time. Your home A/C probably has a bigger motor.
Nor is the power required to run those motors and manage the electronics required to operate the systems
Wrong - a turned off turbine consumes only a few kW to keep the batteries charged, keep up the comm with the remote controll center, etc. That number goes up should there be a low or no-wind situation in the winter, when heaters kick in to keep the oil fluid and the controlls from collecting condensation.
If you ever stand near one while they are stopped and trying to re-"spin" you learn that they are working fairly hard, constantly adjusting the blade heading and blade angle.
Partly wrong - if a turbine senses that the wind is picking up and it may trend towards the cut-in speed, it adjusts the balde pitch to the 'run-up' position and keeps them there since this is the pitch at which it would be most efficient to spool up to speed with. The yaw system is always keeping the machine head in the wind, no matter what.
Even while running in a strong wind, the turbine makes many corrections each minute in blade pitch
Correct - in order to extract the max power, the balde angles are adjusted very often, very quickly by even a fraction of a degree - all done by very small motors.
...and probably in turbine drag.
HUH???
All requiring significant power.
Wrong - compared to the overall production of one turbine, the power it consumes during operation or when standing still is chump-change!
Also, the turbine only engages and produce net power once a certain amount of blade speed (net power) is achieved. This speed is higher than most realize.
Correct - but that cut-in speed is lower than you think, particularly with the newer, larger rotor machines. About 5m/s is enough to go on-line and pump power into the grid.
So, even all the alignment and blade changes at low speed are also from power being sucked off the grid. In other words, at low speed the blade is just free wheeling with no power being produced.
Partly correct - in the run-up phase, the turbine spools up to speed and performs a bunch of self-checks. As I said before, no blade adjustments are being done until the turbine decides it sees enough to on-line and produce. Hardly any power is 'sucked off the grid' in that phase!
Personally, I refer to this region as the field of death" or the "bird scrambler farm"! The ground around them is literally littered with dead birds.
So you think that a turbine is a large Cuisinart which purees whole floks of birds? I do visit wind farms across the US and Europe regularly - remember, I work for one of those evil companies - and I have yet to find an area littered with dead birds or bats! Even the Audoban Society published a study saying that more birds get killed by cars, by flying into plate glass or by cats! I am not denying that birds get killed by flying into the blades but the magnitude is by far not as you describe it.

The rest of your ramblings exceeds my will to respond, so I won't comment.
I do not wish for any soaring site to loose its value or utility - we have lost too many in the US already - but I think who ever is developing the site will give a hoot about a bunch of guys wanting to zipp over that ridge in their white shimy toys for their own pleasure! Trying to stop a project like this needs better arguments than what was cited above.

GM

GM,

You are the man!


On Tuesday, October 8, 2013 5:55:41 AM UTC-4, GM wrote:
On Monday, October 7, 2013 4:34:57 PM UTC+2, Sean F (F2) wrote:

Probably 30 amps... Enough to keep itself aligned into the wind and to adjust the blade pitch (X 100's of turbines in each farm). The motors required to manage those tasks are not small! Nor is the power required to run those motors and manage the electronics required to operate the systems. If you ever stand near one while they are stopped and trying to re-"spin" you learn that they are working fairly hard, constantly adjusting the blade heading and blade angle. Even while running in a strong wind, the turbine makes many corrections each minute in blade pitch and probably in turbine drag. All requiring significant power. Also, the turbine only engages and produce net power once a certain amount of blade speed (net power) is achieved. This speed is higher than most realize. So, even all the alignment and blade changes at low speed are also from power being sucked off the grid. In other words, at low speed the blade is just free wheeling with no power being produced. We have a huge "windfarm" to the NE of Ionia near Alma Michigan. We fly over it often. Probably 150 - 200 generators. Personally, I refer to this region as the field of death" or the "bird scrambler farm"! The ground around them is literally littered with dead birds. I would fear greatly for the soaring birds in the Mifflin habitat. Were is the EPA on this one? Hmmm? Sure, its a big problem when you endanger the spotted owl (in any capitalist endeavor)...but when hundreds of hawks and other birds are ensured of a brutal inhumane death every month per wind turbine blade strikes its overlooked because its a liberal project. Enjoy the death of birds at the hand of green energy liberals below: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwVz5hdAMGU http://singletrackworld.com/forum/to...cifixes/page/2 http://now.msn.com/bird-hits-wind-tu...lled-instantly http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...twitchers.html https://www.google.com/search?q=bird...ih=62 9&dpr=2 The horror of liberals and their wind turbines are very real for soaring birds. Liberals, where are you on this one? Hmmmm? Tens of thousands on INNOCENT BIRDS are dying each and every day! Their blood is on your hands!



Sean,



thanks for your enlightening and education! Is all your wisdom based on true insight knowledge, i.e. you worked in the industry and have climbed countless turbines, etc. or did you just Google the issue and then re-post all the bit & pieces which support your point of view? Perhaps you stayed at a Holiday-Inn Express last night. ;-) Remember - you cannot believe everything on the internet - that's how WW-1 got started!

As an FYI - I work in designing and repairing wind turbines for a good number of years, so here we go:

Enough to keep itself aligned into the wind and to adjust the blade pitch

Correct. That way, the turbine can get back on-line at a moments notice, once the wind picks up to above cut-in speed.

The motors required to manage those tasks are not small

Wrong - these motors have a rating of a few kW and they are in operation a few seconds at a time. Your home A/C probably has a bigger motor.

Nor is the power required to run those motors and manage the electronics required to operate the systems

Wrong - a turned off turbine consumes only a few kW to keep the batteries charged, keep up the comm with the remote controll center, etc. That number goes up should there be a low or no-wind situation in the winter, when heaters kick in to keep the oil fluid and the controlls from collecting condensation.

If you ever stand near one while they are stopped and trying to re-"spin" you learn that they are working fairly hard, constantly adjusting the blade heading and blade angle.

Partly wrong - if a turbine senses that the wind is picking up and it may trend towards the cut-in speed, it adjusts the balde pitch to the 'run-up' position and keeps them there since this is the pitch at which it would be most efficient to spool up to speed with. The yaw system is always keeping the machine head in the wind, no matter what.

Even while running in a strong wind, the turbine makes many corrections each minute in blade pitch

Correct - in order to extract the max power, the balde angles are adjusted very often, very quickly by even a fraction of a degree - all done by very small motors.

...and probably in turbine drag.

HUH???

All requiring significant power.

Wrong - compared to the overall production of one turbine, the power it consumes during operation or when standing still is chump-change!

Also, the turbine only engages and produce net power once a certain amount of blade speed (net power) is achieved. This speed is higher than most realize.

Correct - but that cut-in speed is lower than you think, particularly with the newer, larger rotor machines. About 5m/s is enough to go on-line and pump power into the grid.

So, even all the alignment and blade changes at low speed are also from power being sucked off the grid. In other words, at low speed the blade is just free wheeling with no power being produced.

Partly correct - in the run-up phase, the turbine spools up to speed and performs a bunch of self-checks. As I said before, no blade adjustments are being done until the turbine decides it sees enough to on-line and produce.. Hardly any power is 'sucked off the grid' in that phase!

Personally, I refer to this region as the field of death" or the "bird scrambler farm"! The ground around them is literally littered with dead birds.

So you think that a turbine is a large Cuisinart which purees whole floks of birds? I do visit wind farms across the US and Europe regularly - remember, I work for one of those evil companies - and I have yet to find an area littered with dead birds or bats! Even the Audoban Society published a study saying that more birds get killed by cars, by flying into plate glass or by cats! I am not denying that birds get killed by flying into the blades but the magnitude is by far not as you describe it.



The rest of your ramblings exceeds my will to respond, so I won't comment..

I do not wish for any soaring site to loose its value or utility - we have lost too many in the US already - but I think who ever is developing the site will give a hoot about a bunch of guys wanting to zipp over that ridge in their white shimy toys for their own pleasure! Trying to stop a project like this needs better arguments than what was cited above.



GM

On Sunday, October 6, 2013 11:01:33 AM UTC-4, KS wrote:
Two companies are planning the installation of wind turbines on top of Jacks Mt near the Mifflin County Airport where contests have been held for 23 years. Ridge running on Jacks is vital to the success of soaring at Mifflin and these devices would eliminate an essential part of the soaring activity.

See http://mifflin.ridgesewing.com/Jacks.htm for a further link to information which will show a picture of what the wind farm would look like and a request for letters/e-mails to help thwart this project.



Thanks for your help.



Karl Striedieck



PS Send this on to those who might not follow ras but could help.

Raptor mortality due to windmills is not an issue with the type of wind turbine structure currently used - cylindrical towers. Out west at places like Tehachipi the situation is different due to the lattice type towers used. There, with very few perching places, the hawks and eagles use the towers to scan for prey, and then get clobbered as they dive off.

Bat mortality is a different story, as many have been killed by wind turbines here in the East. I talked to a bat expert who consults with wind energy companies and he said the companies he's worked with have altered their operations to lessen bat mortality. These measures include shutting down the turbines at night when the wind speed is less than 15 mph in the summer. They don't miss much generation potential as a result.

A stronger case for opposing the Jacks wind farm proposals by Volkswind and Eon is protection of endangered species and water resources. Don't laugh but there are some difficult DEP hoops to jump through concerning the timber rattle snake and Allegheny wood rat.

And the sharp peak and steep drop offs where the turbines would be placed call for extensive mountain top removal and all the implies for water resources (and esthetics) for the residents in the valley.

Strict environmental zoning by the townships that would be impacted is important to the effort to keep Jacks Mt useable for soaring, and that is the thrust of the current appeal for letters/e-mails to the two townships.

Pa. has hundreds of windmills on the Allegheny Plateau and that is good place to put them. There is room and wind for thousands more.

Personally, we support green energy by being 100% self sufficient through a grid-connected PV system and pond-based geo thermal. But there are situations where the geology, esthetics and environmental conditions argue against an industrial scale wind farm. Jacks Mt is such a place.

Thanks for those letters and e-mails.

Karl Striedieck and past and future ridge runners.

GM,

Thank you for you expert reply!

Guys,
I hope that they will not put the farm on top of a great soaring location, I will do my part and write a letter, but Wind Farms are not evil empires! I would much rather get my energy or a least as much of it as possible, from Wind and Solar than from dirty coal. I spend a lot of time in places most people can't pronounce, and air you can eat! Trust me when I say, you would much more prefer to breath the clean air that Wind and Solar provide than breath what I have to live with most of my time away!

It's just another perspective! I hope we don't lose this great soaring site, but bashing Wind is not the answer!

My two cents,
Josh


Sean,

thanks for your enlightening and education! Is all your wisdom based on true insight knowledge, i.e. you worked in the industry and have climbed countless turbines, etc. or did you just Google the issue and then re-post all the bit & pieces which support your point of view? Perhaps you stayed at a Holiday-Inn Express last night. ;-) Remember - you cannot believe everything on the internet - that's how WW-1 got started!
As an FYI - I work in designing and repairing wind turbines for a good number of years, so here we go:
Enough to keep itself aligned into the wind and to adjust the blade pitch
Correct. That way, the turbine can get back on-line at a moments notice, once the wind picks up to above cut-in speed.
The motors required to manage those tasks are not small
Wrong - these motors have a rating of a few kW and they are in operation a few seconds at a time. Your home A/C probably has a bigger motor.
Nor is the power required to run those motors and manage the electronics required to operate the systems
Wrong - a turned off turbine consumes only a few kW to keep the batteries charged, keep up the comm with the remote controll center, etc. That number goes up should there be a low or no-wind situation in the winter, when heaters kick in to keep the oil fluid and the controlls from collecting condensation.
If you ever stand near one while they are stopped and trying to re-"spin" you learn that they are working fairly hard, constantly adjusting the blade heading and blade angle.
Partly wrong - if a turbine senses that the wind is picking up and it may trend towards the cut-in speed, it adjusts the balde pitch to the 'run-up' position and keeps them there since this is the pitch at which it would be most efficient to spool up to speed with. The yaw system is always keeping the machine head in the wind, no matter what.
Even while running in a strong wind, the turbine makes many corrections each minute in blade pitch
Correct - in order to extract the max power, the balde angles are adjusted very often, very quickly by even a fraction of a degree - all done by very small motors.
...and probably in turbine drag.
HUH???
All requiring significant power.
Wrong - compared to the overall production of one turbine, the power it consumes during operation or when standing still is chump-change!
Also, the turbine only engages and produce net power once a certain amount of blade speed (net power) is achieved. This speed is higher than most realize.
Correct - but that cut-in speed is lower than you think, particularly with the newer, larger rotor machines. About 5m/s is enough to go on-line and pump power into the grid.
So, even all the alignment and blade changes at low speed are also from power being sucked off the grid. In other words, at low speed the blade is just free wheeling with no power being produced.
Partly correct - in the run-up phase, the turbine spools up to speed and performs a bunch of self-checks. As I said before, no blade adjustments are being done until the turbine decides it sees enough to on-line and produce. Hardly any power is 'sucked off the grid' in that phase!
Personally, I refer to this region as the field of death" or the "bird scrambler farm"! The ground around them is literally littered with dead birds.
So you think that a turbine is a large Cuisinart which purees whole floks of birds? I do visit wind farms across the US and Europe regularly - remember, I work for one of those evil companies - and I have yet to find an area littered with dead birds or bats! Even the Audoban Society published a study saying that more birds get killed by cars, by flying into plate glass or by cats! I am not denying that birds get killed by flying into the blades but the magnitude is by far not as you describe it.

The rest of your ramblings exceeds my will to respond, so I won't comment.
I do not wish for any soaring site to loose its value or utility - we have lost too many in the US already - but I think who ever is developing the site will give a hoot about a bunch of guys wanting to zipp over that ridge in their white shimy toys for their own pleasure! Trying to stop a project like this needs better arguments than what was cited above.

GM[/quote]

Couldn't one argue that this will ruin the Amish simplicity of life? Can you get. Enough Amish against this?

Tim

Eric, I shared your post with my pet canary, and he was quite offended at the implication that small non predator avian species would be considered inferior. I must admit he has a point. I personally think crows are the most intelligent North American bird. You wont see them flying into a whirling blade. I have absolutely no data to support my position in this matter..
DLB