Best cross country ship class

On Tuesday, October 22, 2013 10:09:51 AM UTC-6, Waveguru wrote:
I hate it when green pilots confuse the level of performance with the level of fun...
WaveG,
Why do you hate this so much? Do you just let it simmer or do you get up into peoples faces? (Kidding!) I think alot of this depends on where a guy is flying. As a newly minted Pilot I loved boating around the coastal mountains of California in a 1-26 and 1-36. There were days during the Winter where 1-26es and hang gliders were the only things that would stay up. In strong desert conditions they were not so much fun. I bought a 20 for my 1st ship and found it very straight forward to fly. There have been pilots on the Yahoo group who have made the transition with as little as 35 hours (Disclaimer; Be VERY diligent about checking yourself out). After 9 seasons I transitioned to a 27 and it is in most respects easier to fly. With all due respect as a loud mouthed ugly American (Kidding again, thats from the hand on the release thread that got out of control) I think we are confusing the OP. Both of the ships he mentioned would be fantastic XC ships for beginners or veterans. I would follow BB's advise and head to Williams for some transition training and see if the 27 suits your ambitions. Lastly, One of my mentors suggested I buy an old beater for my 1st ship in case I damage it. I ignored this and bought a very clean plane and yes, I did have to buff out some scrapes and repaint the bottom of the nose once (Thats what the off season is for). It's just part of soaring and if you are worried about this go fly power.

Is it unusual over there to share gliders? Soon after getting my Silver in a club glider I bought a half share of a Discus shared with an experienced XC pilot. He became a personal mentor and helped me a lot both to progress my XC flying and to learn about glider ownership. I have always enjoyed sharing a glider.

Could you not buy a flapped glider and just leave the flaps in their most neutral setting for a year or so - ?

On Tuesday, May 12, 2015 at 3:32:51 PM UTC-7, wrote:
Could you not buy a flapped glider and just leave the flaps in their most neutral setting for a year or so - ?

Sure, and you could buy a 5-speed car and drive everywhere in 3rd!

Mike

On 5/12/2015 4:32 PM, wrote:
Could you not buy a flapped glider and just leave the flaps in their most
neutral setting for a year or so - ?

This question'll likely trigger a small gamut of replies!

Having never owned or flown any high performance single seaters that did NOT
have flaps, here's my take. (Hidden assumption: the question refers to only
performance-enhancing camber-changing flaps, and not to large-deflection
landing flaps. So does my feedback...)

Indeed you could - and with very little loss of performance between the
performance you'll achieve by so doing, and what the ship is theoretically
capable of for a given speed. (Work out some numbers from the Johnson flight
test reports if you don't believe me.) Conceptually, it would be no different
from deciding to not retract retractable landing gear until one became
"sufficiently comfortable" in their new ship. Just because a ship has
features, nothing says Joe Pilot has to operate every feature on the first
flight...or on ANY flight. (Think water ballast, radio, flight computers, tail
parachute...)

That noted, it's been my experience when this issue comes up around the
gliderport that the person asking often has some concern about feeling
"overloaded" or "too busy" or some such to want to "have to fiddle
continuously" with a flap handle. What I've always tried to point out to them
is how they feel on their initial flights will rapidly change as the ship's
newness wears off and they gain familiarity with it. So if a pilot is
otherwise enamored of the concept of camber-changing flaps for whatever their
personal reason(s), my advice has always been to buy whatever flapped ship
they wish, and treat it as an unflapped one until such time as they're
comfortable "messing with" flaps.

Undoubtedly someone will point out that: 1) negative flaps aid low-speed
aileron control (generally true) and that to NOT mess with them on initial
tows is being dangerously irresponsible (an overstatement, IMHO), or some
similar sentiment, and 2) positive landing flaps decrease
stall/potential-touchdown speed (unarguably true).

As for 1), presuming one chooses "sensible weather conditions" for their
first-flight, this is arguably a rather fine point indeed. Against the day you
eventually fly ANY new-to-you single seater, my advice is to work actively on
improving one's wing-leveling skills/ability (many pilots are surprisingly
sloppy in this regard), do a good brief with the tug pilot and wing runner,
and go launch using the configuration with which you're the most comfortable.

Regarding 2) I find it easy to argue either to move the flap handle one time
(during your pre-pattern checklist) to "landing flap" and thereafter to
mentally put that behind you, fly the pattern using spoilers as you would in
an unflapped ship, and land, or alternatively, so simply fly the pattern and
land with 0-flap. The theoretical higher speed will be a non-issue for all
practical purposes, if you've been sensible about all the rest of your
first-flight airfield/weather conditions.

Nuances aside, "messing with flaps" is really something of a minor nit,
compared to everything else mentally a glider pilot must do on every flight.
Stated another way, the theoretical concern will - in hindsight - probably
have loomed MUCH larger than the practical reality. Piloting skill, not flaps,
keeps you in the air.

Have fun ship shopping!

Bob W.

P.S. If you buy a flapped ship, I predict a LOT less than a year will pass
before you're of a mind to begin using the flaps as the designer intended.

What are the pilots around you flying?

If everyone else flies 15m class & you buy standard you'll have to push
really hard to fly with / against them & will land out a lot.

If everybody else flies standard class & you buy 15m class then you won't
be pushing yourself at all, and it's pushing yourself (a little) that will
improve your soaring.

Neither of the above scenarios are good in your early years.
(Or later years for that matter)

And it's in the nature of the sport that you WILL want to fly with /
against the pilots around you.

With any glider from the LS4 to the JS1 the limiting factor is likely to be
you not the aircraft.

Regards

KN

On Wednesday, May 13, 2015 at 12:30:04 AM UTC-7, Kevin Neave wrote:
What are the pilots around you flying?

If everyone else flies 15m class & you buy standard you'll have to push
really hard to fly with / against them & will land out a lot.

If everybody else flies standard class & you buy 15m class then you won't
be pushing yourself at all, and it's pushing yourself (a little) that will
improve your soaring.

Neither of the above scenarios are good in your early years.
(Or later years for that matter)

And it's in the nature of the sport that you WILL want to fly with /
against the pilots around you.

With any glider from the LS4 to the JS1 the limiting factor is likely to be
you not the aircraft.

Regards

KN

The performance difference between a modern standard class and 15 m is not that great - at least here in the strong conditions of the US Southwest. Two pilots we all try to keep up with fly a Discus 2 and an LS-8.

Mike

On Wednesday, 16 October 2013 00:29:01 UTC+3, Seattle wrote:
I'm in the market for a standard class or 15 meter flapped ship. This is my first ship, and I doubt I want to deal with 18 m of wings.

An example would be a Discus 2 vs ASW 27. Currently most of my flight goals are simple: get as high up, and far out as possible. Speed is nice, but I'm doubtful I'll be comfortable in a competition for many seasons.

All other things being equal, which is the better type (flapped or non-flapped) for staying up a long time and, eventually, cross country flights?

Thanks!

Buy Discus-2T (or Ventus2CT) with decent trailer. You will find that having that little engine gives you twice the amount of really nice cross-country flights annually. Flaps or not is insignificant. All modern gliders are nice and safe to fly.