class C and B comms on sectionals?

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
et...
It was a response to the statement, "You don't need a VOR receiver to be
able to know where a VOR radial is, when flying VFR." You don't see the
connection?

No, I don't.

Please explain how it's done.

For VORs with a printed compass rose, it's trivial. The compass rose will
be oriented to match the radials, and you simply plot the radial based on
that. For VORs without a printed compass rose, just correct magnetic
heading with the deviation for the VOR, and plot the radial based on that.

Either way, you get a line that is drawn on your chart. You use your
eyeballs to visually identify landmarks on the ground that show you where
the line is.

Honestly, it makes me wonder how you ever became a pilot, given that you
can't figure out basic stuff like this. You must find it difficult just to
navigate your way out of a paper bag.

Pete

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...
"Bill Denton" wrote in message
...
[...]
But I would have to question your statement: "Milwaukee's varies with
runway
usage. Sometimes it's along runway 7/25, sometimes it's along runway
1/19".

How often would a pilot know the active runway prior to calling
Approach?

Seattle has a similar situation. Before calling Approach, you listen to
the
ATIS, because the sector divisions (some of them) depend on which
direction
the traffic is flowing.

They're not secret. They're just incomprehensible.

Nearby Boeing Field has the same flow-dependent sector boundaries as SeaTac
(http://www.airnav.com/airport/KBFI), and like the OP there is no stated
point on which they are based. If you need to be accurate, assume the SEA
VOR. Don't try asking Boeing Tower which frequency to use for flight
following either; at least while I was based there, they usually couldn't
figure it out.

I much prefer it up at Everett, where approach and departure is handled by
one Center frequency (yes! a Center controller lining up spam-cans for one
of 5 different approaches).

-- David Brooks

"David Brooks" wrote in message
...
They're not secret. They're just incomprehensible.

I didn't suggest that anyone thought the sector boundaries were secret. The
only secrecy mentioned in my post was the active runway.

Nearby Boeing Field has the same flow-dependent sector boundaries as
SeaTac
(http://www.airnav.com/airport/KBFI), and like the OP there is no stated
point on which they are based.

I'm not really sure what you mean by "the same flow-dependent sector
boundaries". If you mean that the approach/departure control listed in the
AFD is the same facility listed for SeaTac, and thus has the same sectors,
I'd have to agree with that. But then, the same thing is true for any
airport using the SeaTac app/dep facility, and I'm not sure it's meaningful
to mention it. Since it's the same facility, of course the boundaries are
the same.

If you mean that Boeing has its own sectors which are similarly dependent on
the current flow, I'll have to disagree. Boeing has no ATC sectors of its
own, since they aren't a radar facility. It does have two tower
frequencies, but those are selected according to the runway you want to land
on, not the active runway.

If you need to be accurate, assume the SEA VOR.

That's my point. You have no need to be so accurate that it matters whether
you assume the VOR or the airport.

Don't try asking Boeing Tower which frequency to use for flight
following either; at least while I was based there, they usually couldn't
figure it out.

Just depends on the controller. I suspect to some extent, controllers don't
want to be bothered. However, if you really want flight following out of
Boeing, what I'd do is call up the clearance delivery frequency before
taxiing and ask if you can get assigned a squawk and controller frequency
for departure.

I much prefer it up at Everett, where approach and departure is handled by
one Center frequency (yes! a Center controller lining up spam-cans for one
of 5 different approaches).

I like PAE better too (after all, that's where my plane is ), but mainly
because it's easier to get a word in edgewise. I never had any trouble
figuring out the frequency to use at Boeing, but finding a quiet moment on
the radio with which to call up the app/dep controller was problematic much
of the time.

Pete

Well then. there you have it..

A DE gave you bad information

(s)he is human. It happens. Old Wives tales get passed on and bad
information perpetuates itself.

SHould it happen? No. Does it happen? Yes.

What can you do? If you REALLY want to, refer it to the FSDO and they
can point it out to the examiner. You didnt (improperly) receive a
notice of disapproval over it did you? You have your ticket so go out
there and use it, and chalk this up to experience.

Dave

Magnus wrote:
I don't have an operational problem with using the chart and I know that
approach control won't go crazy if I somehow manage to use the wrong
frequency.

My issue is being told by a designated examiner something that a:
doesn't make sense and b: she can't back up with a source

It's not the radials that's the problem, it's the selected starting
point from where the bearings in the legend should extend. Claiming that
the bearings should extend from anything other than the primary airport
for the airspace seems crazy to me.

Apart from the fact that some airports don't have VORs, even if it does,
your not flying to a VOR, you're flying to the airport and the airport
and VOR don't necessarily have to be co-located so to me, the reference
point naturally should be the airport and not any nav-aid that happens
to be in the area.

But like I said, I'd like to find a proper source where I can read about
these charts.


On 2004-04-24 12:33:25 -0400, "Steven P. McNicoll"
said:


"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...


Someone else answered that. You don't need a VOR receiver to
be able to know where a VOR radial is, when flying VFR.


No navigation equipment is required for VFR entry of Class B or C
airspace.
How does one know where a VOR radial is without using any navigation
equipment?

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...

For VORs with a printed compass rose, it's trivial. The compass
rose will be oriented to match the radials, and you simply plot the
radial based on that. For VORs without a printed compass rose,
just correct magnetic heading with the deviation for the VOR, and
plot the radial based on that.

Either way, you get a line that is drawn on your chart. You use
your eyeballs to visually identify landmarks on the ground that show
you where the line is.


What do you do where there are no landmarks?



Honestly, it makes me wonder how you ever became a pilot, given
that you can't figure out basic stuff like this.


Why would I do this?



You must find it difficult just to
navigate your way out of a paper bag.


Navigation's a snap.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...
What do you do where there are no landmarks?

No landmarks within the lateral limits of Class B airspace? Not possible.
I can believe that there are no landmarks that you are capable of
identifying, but that's your own limitation. It has nothing to do with the
general technique.

Honestly, it makes me wonder how you ever became a pilot, given
that you can't figure out basic stuff like this.

Why would I do this?

Sorry, I thought you were actually paying attention to this thread.

Navigation's a snap.

Not according to your posts.

Pete

No landmarks within the lateral limits of Class B airspace? Not possible.
I can believe that there are no landmarks that you are capable of
identifying, but that's your own limitation. It has nothing to do with the
general technique.

Ahh... technique. That's why I can't find any landmarks to determine the
eastern edge of the Miami class B airspace.

haha

"Bob Webster" wrote in message
...
Ahh... technique. That's why I can't find any landmarks to determine the
eastern edge of the Miami class B airspace.

As far as I know, that edge is not defined by a VOR radial. In any case,
the real issue here is whether you can determine the right approach
frequency to use without a VOR receiver. If you have no landmarks with
which to navigate, you'd darn well better be using *something* to know where
you are, and that includes when you are out over open water.

Even if that's just a clock and a compass, the original point -- that you do
NOT need to have a VOR receiver in order to determine what approach
frequency to use, or even to identify the general location of VOR radials --
is completely correct.

All that said, I'm puzzled why you bothered to reply to this portion of the
thread. Everyone else understands the basic point regarding whether it
matters whether the sectors for approach frequencies are based relative to
the airport or VOR (that is, it doesn't matter), and I would've thought that
everyone else would understand that having a VOR receiver is not a
requirement for knowing where you are on your chart relative to other
objects on the chart.

The only reason *I* am even bothering to reply to Steve is that I enjoy
watching his pathological need to twist an argument until something falls
out that he can eat. He is 100% predictable, and it makes a fun side-show.
Why are YOU joining in, especially since your point doesn't do anything to
contradict what I've said?

Pete

Peter Duniho wrote:

"Bob Webster" wrote in message
...

Ahh... technique. That's why I can't find any landmarks to determine the
eastern edge of the Miami class B airspace.


As far as I know, that edge is not defined by a VOR radial. In any case,
the real issue here is whether you can determine the right approach
frequency to use without a VOR receiver. If you have no landmarks with
which to navigate, you'd darn well better be using *something* to know where
you are, and that includes when you are out over open water.

I had a curious assignment by Daytona Approach 2-3 weeks ago. They said
to stay 1/2 mile offshore. I had no clue how far that was, other than by
guessing on the GPS map. So I stayed clear of their Class C.

"Bob Webster" wrote in message
.. .
I had a curious assignment by Daytona Approach 2-3 weeks ago. They said
to stay 1/2 mile offshore. I had no clue how far that was, other than by
guessing on the GPS map. So I stayed clear of their Class C.

"1/2 mile offshore" sounds like "downwind leg along the shoreline". With a
visible shoreline, 1/2 mile offshore should be easy to fly visually,
especially since with a request like that, I can't imagine they care
anything other than that you are out over the water rather than over land.

Pete