ATC clears takeoff aircraft for midair

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:%Q5pc.241$gr.25776@attbi_s52...

I hear what you're saying, but to call non-radar airspace such as
MOST Class D "controlled" is (again, IMHO) wrong.


I don't have any figures, but I'd expect most Class D airspace does have
radar coverage. In any case, Class D airspace that does not have radar
coverage is just as controlled as Class D airspace that does.



Call it "semi-controlled" or "ground separation only" or "we hope to
see you with our binoculars" -- do anything but call it "controlled"
...cuz it ain't.


Do you consider Class E airspace uncontrolled as well? How do you
differentiate between Class E and Class G?

Jay Honeck wrote:
I gotta disagree with you Jay. I fly out of a busier airport than
HPN--FRG also in NY. It's class D as well and I shudder when I think
about that airport not having a control tower. It's far from perfect
but the controllers do their best to try and warn pilots of nearby
aircraft even though it's not their responsibility. What would your
solution be?

I hear what you're saying, but to call non-radar airspace such as
MOST Class D "controlled" is (again, IMHO) wrong.

Call it "semi-controlled" or "ground separation only" or "we hope to
see you with our binoculars" -- do anything but call it
"controlled"...cuz it ain't.

Aren't you forgetting about class E?
That is labeled "controlled", too, but hopefully even the dumbest pilot
would not expect VFR traffic separation by ATC in class E.

jue

On Fri, 14 May 2004 09:59:38 -0400, "Marco Leon"
mleon(at)optonline.net wrote:

I gotta disagree with you Jay. I fly out of a busier airport than HPN--FRG
also in NY. It's class D as well and I shudder when I think about that
airport not having a control tower. It's far from perfect but the
controllers do their best to try and warn pilots of nearby aircraft even
though it's not their responsibility. What would your solution be? Make
Class C the first airspace designation with towers? Make all Class D's Class
C's? Give Class D ATC separation responsibilities? The last solution would
require prohibitively expensive radar upgrades.

Marco

I agree with Jay about Class D being the most dangerous airspace to
fly in. That doesn't mean that you're wrong, though. Even though I
believe that they are dangerous areas, I do not advocate eliminating
the towers and I do understand the problems associated with upgrading
to Class C or even D with radar. I think that we simply need to
recognize that the ingredients for problems are all there and we need
to be extra diligent while flying there. It's just the nature of the
beast. I don't have a better solution for the problem.

Rich Russell

Jay Honeck wrote:

The designation of "Class D" provides the veneer of controlled airspace
without any real substance, and lulls the unwary into a false sense of
security.

The key word here is "unwary". That should never be applicable to a pilot.
That is, no pilot flying should be capable of assuming separation in D
airspace.

So there is no "veneer". We all know from our training: class D is
"unseparated" (a reasonable term, I think {8^) airspace.

- Andrew

"Andrew Gideon" wrote in message
gonline.com...

So there is no "veneer". We all know from our training: class D is
"unseparated" (a reasonable term, I think {8^) airspace.


As long as you're talking about VFR/VFR or VFR/IFR separation.

On Fri, 14 May 2004 13:44:35 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
wrote:

The tower at a class D airport does not provide much in the way of traffic
separation. They schedule takeoffs and landings and that is about it.

Which is why, IMHO, Class D airspace is the single most dangerous airspace
around.

The designation of "Class D" provides the veneer of controlled airspace
without any real substance, and lulls the unwary into a false sense of
security.


You hit that nail right on the head. The combination of pilots'
unrealistic expectations and poor position reporting is a recipe for
disaster. Add an inattentive controller in and you have an exciting
invironment. "D" for danger.

Rich Russell

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message news:734pc.91269$Ik.6994445@attbi_s53...
The tower at a class D airport does not provide much in the way of traffic
separation. They schedule takeoffs and landings and that is about it.

Which is why, IMHO, Class D airspace is the single most dangerous airspace
around.


Class "A" - Above
Class "B" - Busy
Class "C" - Crowded
Class "D" - Dangerous
Class "E" - Enjoyable
Class "G" - Greatest of all

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...


The tower at a class D airport does not provide much in the way of traffic
separation.

None, except on the runway.

They schedule takeoffs and landings and that is about it.

Really?


They
don't have to tell you when to turn crosswind to downwind,

But they can and often do to keep the flow of traffic running smooth.


or what heading a
departing aircraft is to take.

You don't get headings but you may be told not to turn before you cross the
farmhouse over yonder.

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
If you want that kind of service you need to
fly out of class B airports. It is up to the pilots to look out for one
another.

Even class B airports expect you to be able to navigate on yor own.
They do however provided separation to everybody.

"Joe Johnson" wrote in message
. ..
I'm a newly minted PP-ASEL and had a disturbing experience the other day.
I've begun renting at the field where I trained, a busy class D airport.
It's usually not possible to do pattern work there because it's so busy.
Returning from a local flight, I noticed that there was very little
traffic,
so I asked to do some touch & gos; I was making left traffic using runway
16. On the 3rd or 4th go, I noticed that a craft was cleared for takeoff
on
runway 11. I knew immediately that our paths would cross. I could not
see
the other plane as it was behind me; the other pilot was warned by the
tower
that I was in the pattern making left traffic. The other pilot finally
saw
me as I was turning crosswing to downwind (heading 70 to 340) and he
indicated he was turning right from his takeoff heading 110. When I
caught
sight of him, I don't think we were more than 100'-200' apart. At this
point, I said "traffic in sight" and tower replied "maintain visual
separation."

So far this is all normal VFR tower stuff.



If I had it to do again, I would have left the pattern and
headed outbound heading somewhere between 160 (my departure heading) and
110
(the other pilot's) until we had positive visual identification.

This would only make it worse.



I'd be especially interested in comments from Gene Whitt, who said ATC has
been trying to kill him for 40 years, and anyone who might recognize the
airport from the runways described.


I worked at a busy VFR tower for four years. That's exactly what happens
every day. We're still trying to get Gene, he's a little slippery though.