Landing patterns

"Michael" wrote in message
om...
dave wrote
However rare an engine failure in the pattern might be we've all read
about them.

Actually, the only ones I know of where there wasn't enough power left
to limp to the runway were indeed fuel exhaustion.

I can't recall anyone ever hitting an updraft in a cub,
citabria, etc. on final that pushed them so high they missed the field.
Where have you seen this?

In Texas, where we routinely see 500 fpm updrafts in the summer. I
was in a Cub. I knew I was a little high and a little hot and I was
already slipping - and then I hit an updraft and nothing I did was
good enough to get down. Oh, I suppose I might have managed a landing
well past midfield but at that point a go-around seemed like the hot
tip.

In IL we get 1000 fpm thermals. Not sure why but at low altitudes, such as
on final, they have little effect. They need altitude to develop or some
such thing. As someone else explained, thermals have very little effect on
touchdown point when flying a steep approach. Had you stayed with it you
would have found you would have touched down very near your original
touchdown point. Sink sems to be a much bigger issue than lift. The
antidote for sink is high and slipping like crazy if you have to.

Michael wrote:

Cub Driver wrote

Personally, I have gone back to power-off landings for just this
reason. And I try, not always successfully, to come in "high, hot, and
slipping like crazy" since I don't have the option of raising the
flaps.


And what happens when you eventually hit an updraft? If you're
already high, hot, and slipping like crazy, that updraft will put you
too high and hot to land, and you will need to go around.

Here's a bit of reality - unless you run out of gas, it is highly
unlikely that an engine that was working just fine when you entered
the pattern will fail so suddenly and so completely that it won't
produce enough power to flatten your glide enough for you to make the
runway given a reasonable pattern. On the other hand, it may well
crap out badly enough that you won't have the power to go around -
especially if you are flying a 65 hp Cub, which is a marginal
performer anyway.

I'm all for keeping the pattern close in, but there are limits to
everything.

Michael


high, hot, and slipping like crazy
High: correct, but as I will explain later high is better than low.
Hot: A normal power-off landing need not be any hotter than than a
powered approach. I was taught to come in with normal approach speed.
Cub D. comes in hot because there is no runway too short for a cub and
he is using the kenetic energy as a safety buffer instead of power. The
same buffer can be provided with potential energy (coming in high)
Slipping: Not needed unless your flaps are boken. Cub driver uses slips
because he is experienced and practices this (Also because he likes
them). Dave already explained how his wife made the runway with an
extemely high approach.

And what happens when you eventually hit an updraft? If you're
already high

On a peice of paper draw a side view of the runway, a high approach and
a low approach. You will see that *minor* changes in the approach angle
with the low approach has a *major* change on your touch-down spot. The
same angle change of a high approach has a *minor* change on the
touch-down spot. For example: presume that you come in with a
powered-approach that has a glide angle of 40:1 and Mr. C150 comes in
with a high approach that has a 10:1 glide angle. If an updraft raises
you 50 feet, your touch down spot has moved 2000 feet. If that same
updraft raises Mr. C150 50 feet, his touch down spot only moves 500 feet.

When I was being taught power-off approaches 30 years ago, I asked my
instructor the same question about getting too high. He setup an
approach that was so high above the numbers, I didn't think we would
make the other end of the runway. He pulled full flaps and I was amazed
at how short we landed.

and you will need to go around.

I have been flying power-off landings and have not done a go-around in
30 years.

Here's a bit of reality - unless you run out of gas, it is highly
unlikely...
I agree with you completely. Due to the unlikely nature of a power
failure, maybe it has been proven that a powered approach is safer;
maybe not. I don't know. That is why I asked the original question.
However, here is another bit of reality from Wolfgang Langewiesche, "But
meanwhile it can't be denied that engine failure, though very
unlikely, is very serious if it does happen, and that the accuracy of
his power-off approach can thus suddenly become the most important thing
in he pilot's life."

Even a 767 was successfully landed with no power because the pilot had
extensive practice in power-off landings.
http://www.wadenelson.com/gimli.html

My main point is that if you don't practice power-off landings when your
power works, you won't be able to do it when the the power doesn't work.

Marty Pautz
"promote a society that respects its elders; before it is too late."

"m pautz" wrote in message
news:IEhAc.62559$0y.6475@attbi_s03...
Cub driver uses slips
because he is experienced and practices this (Also because he likes
them).

And he hasn't got any flaps?

Paul

Paul Sengupta wrote:

"m pautz" wrote in message
news:IEhAc.62559$0y.6475@attbi_s03...

Cub driver uses slips
because he is experienced and practices this (Also because he likes
them).


And he hasn't got any flaps?

Paul


oops,
My lack of knowledge is showing. I just presumed that all cubs had
flaps. I just checked the internet and found out that the flaps didn't
exist until the super cub.

Fortunately I seem to learn something new every day. I should be real
smart by my 200th birthday. :-)

Thanks for the additional information - Dan

high, hot, and slipping like crazy
High: correct, but as I will explain later high is better than low.
Hot: A normal power-off landing need not be any hotter than than a
powered approach. I was taught to come in with normal approach speed.
Cub D. comes in hot because there is no runway too short for a cub and
he is using the kenetic energy as a safety buffer instead of power. The
same buffer can be provided with potential energy (coming in high)
Slipping: Not needed unless your flaps are boken. Cub driver uses slips
because he is experienced and practices this (Also because he likes
them). Dave already explained how his wife made the runway with an
extemely high approach.

And what happens when you eventually hit an updraft? If you're
already high

On a peice of paper draw a side view of the runway, a high approach and
a low approach. You will see that *minor* changes in the approach angle
with the low approach has a *major* change on your touch-down spot. The
same angle change of a high approach has a *minor* change on the
touch-down spot. For example: presume that you come in with a
powered-approach that has a glide angle of 40:1 and Mr. C150 comes in
with a high approach that has a 10:1 glide angle. If an updraft raises
you 50 feet, your touch down spot has moved 2000 feet. If that same
updraft raises Mr. C150 50 feet, his touch down spot only moves 500 feet.

When I was being taught power-off approaches 30 years ago, I asked my
instructor the same question about getting too high. He setup an
approach that was so high above the numbers, I didn't think we would
make the other end of the runway. He pulled full flaps and I was amazed
at how short we landed.

and you will need to go around.

I have been flying power-off landings and have not done a go-around in
30 years.

Here's a bit of reality - unless you run out of gas, it is highly
unlikely...
I agree with you completely. Due to the unlikely nature of a power
failure, maybe it has been proven that a powered approach is safer;
maybe not. I don't know. That is why I asked the original question.
However, here is another bit of reality from Wolfgang Langewiesche, "But
meanwhile it can't be denied that engine failure, though very
unlikely, is very serious if it does happen, and that the accuracy of
his power-off approach can thus suddenly become the most important thing
in he pilot's life."

Even a 767 was successfully landed with no power because the pilot had
extensive practice in power-off landings.
http://www.wadenelson.com/gimli.html

My main point is that if you don't practice power-off landings when your
power works, you won't be able to do it when the the power doesn't work.

Marty Pautz
"promote a society that respects its elders; before it is too late."

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! weblog www.vivabush.org

"m pautz" wrote in message
news:7yEzc.44640$0y.5757@attbi_s03...
So, the question I have for the group is why are power planes taught to
have these wide patterns with low angled turns? Why are the patterns
outside the glide angle of a powerless airplane?

Light the blue touch paper, stand well back.

Paul

Recently, m pautz posted:

So, the question I have for the group is why are power planes taught
to have these wide patterns with low angled turns?

I was taught similarly to you to fly tight patterns. A dead stick landing
while in the pattern was a part of my check ride. It's in the PTS. FWIW,
I'm as good as "dead stick" on final most of the time. So, I suspect that
these stretched patterns at low altitudes are just bad habits built up
over time.

Why are the
patterns outside the glide angle of a powerless airplane? I had a
friend who died because of engine failure. The pilot was within
gliding distance of the airport, but he didn’t know how to fly a
power-out pattern. They crashed short of the runway on final.

There are no "patterns outside the glide angle of a powerless plane"
AFAIK. Pattern altitudes are typically at least 1,000' above GL, and if in
the pattern, it's up to the pilot to make sure that the field can be made
in the event of an engine failure. It seems that your friend failed on
that last part, possibly not due to a lack of know-how.

Neil

This week has been my first visit to this group.

Thanks to everyone for your responses and thanks for not flaming me on
what I later found out was a hot topic.

As I said, there is a wealth of knowledge in this group.


Marty Pautz
"promote a society that respects its elders; before it is too late"