When has it Been too Long before you solo

(JustMe) wrote
With simulated instrument flight, I can do straight and level and
turns. But when combined with climbs and or descents, I don't meet the
PTS requirements. Either I blow the altitude or the heading. Take the
hood off and I can climb, turn, fiddle with the radio and look for
traffic (while chewing gum) without blowing headings or altitudes.

Not a problem. You're not ready for your checkride, but you don't
need to be. With this lack in the instrument flying category, I would
simply solo you with a restriction - no night flying, no flying in
visibility less than 6 miles or ceilings less than 2500 ft. That way,
there's no way you're going to inadvertently get into the clouds, so
no reason why your emergency instrument skills need to be up to par.

You need not be up to private pilot standards when you solo - you just
need to be reasonably safe, and if your skills are deficient in some
area, well, that's what restrictions are for. The FAA recognizes this
and gives CFI's the authority to solo a student who does not meet
private pilot PTS with appropriate restrictions. Your instructor
needs to remember that.

Landings. I fly out of LGB (Long Beach) and LGB is cursed with
WIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIDE runways. I say cursed, since
when we fly to CMP (Compton) or TOA (Torrance), I have no problem
staying on the runway center-line. But at LGB I can track the
center-line up to the flare, after the flare at touchdown I'm off the
centerline. Am I in the weeds? No. I'm usually 20-30 feet left or
right of the centerline.

Again, I don't see a problem. If you can consistently land on the
runway, you're good to go. Landing on the centerline on a very wide
runway is a skill unto itself. If you're looking at the far end of
the runway (as you should be), and the runway is really wide, it is
really easy to land a bit off and not notice. It's not unsafe unless
you are flying a widebody or doing formation landings. Nowidebodies
for you as a student pilot, but I would restrict you from formation
landings.

BTW, there are plenty of private pilots who have the same problem you
do with regard to landings. There is a certificate that calls for the
ability to land with the centerline between the mains. That
certificate is the ATP.

From where I'm sitting, if those are your only problems you are ready
to solo. You're not ready to be a private pilot, but most people are
not ready at less than 50 hours.

Something is not right about your instructor or flight school. I
suggest you check out another.

Michael

(JustMe) wrote in message . com...
Bob Moore wrote in message . 121...
(JustMe) wrote

I unfortunately find myself in the latter category... 47.7 hours and
no solo yet. Only two issues remain: simulated instrument flight and
landings.

With simulated instrument flight, I can do straight and level and
turns. But when combined with climbs and or descents, I don't meet the
PTS requirements. Either I blow the altitude or the heading. Take the
hood off and I can climb, turn, fiddle with the radio and look for
traffic (while chewing gum) without blowing headings or altitudes.

WHAT!!!!!!! Are you doing instrument training before solo? WHY????
Fire your instructor immediately!!! Show him this message. I have
solo'ed nit-wits in less than 20 hours.

Bob Moore
ATP CFI
PanAm (retired)

Bob,

Thanks for the reply.

Yes, I am doing hood work before solo. To be fair, the school where
I'm training has a Pre Solo Stage Check requirement. The stage check
is performed by a Designated Check Airman and not the instructor of
record.

I hesitated posting the contents of the Pre Solo Stage Check, since it
is long, but I'll do so now. The stage check last about two hours and
consists of a ground portion (basic knowledge) and a practical portion
(flight maneuvers).

The ground portion covers the following topic:

- Aerodynamics
- Aircraft Systems (Fuel and Electrical)
- FAR part 91 and 61 (certificates and documents)
- Performance and Limitations
- Class B airspace Requirements
- ATC Procedures and Light Gun
- Weather Briefing
- Runway Markings
- Weight and Balance
- Emergency Checklists
- Spin Awareness
- Land and Hold Short (students just say No!)
- Weight Turbulence Avoidance
- Intercept Procedures

The practical portions includes the following maneuvers:

- Pre-flight Inspection
- Starting Engine
- Taxing ( Communications, Normal and Crosswind Taxiing)
- Pre-takeoff Checklist
- Takeoff (Normal and Crosswind)
- Climb Out
- Descents
- Collision Avoidance
- Straight and Level
- Turns
- Steep Turns
- Ground Reference Maneuvers (S -Turns, Turns Around a Point,
Rectangular Course)
- Instrument Procedures
- Minimum Controllable Airspeed and Slow Flight
- Stalls (Departure, Approach and Accelerated)

Turning Page over

- Emergency Procedures ( Engine Failure, Engine Fire, Electrical Fire,
Emergency Descent, Emergency Approach and Landing, Radio Failure and
Open Door In-Flight)
- Landings (Normal, Crosswind, Pattern Work and Go Arounds)
- Securing and Shutdown.

The completion standards a

- Altitude plus/minus 150 feet
- Headings plus/minus 15 degrees
- Airspeed plus/minus 5 knots.

Given that I don't have something to compare against, I can't tell if
this level of proficiency before solo is excessive. Do other schools
have the same requirements?

Seeing that Instrument Procedures are a requirement, do you have any
tips, tricks or magic incantation that I can perform so that I won't
be chasing the attitude indicator and heading DG all-over the sky?


After 47.7 hours, you can reasonably ask when to expect taking the
plane out in the pattern by yourself. A solo is merely a take-off and
a landing and the shirt off your back

I almost wet my pants when my FI said to taxi to the ramp, drop him
off and take it for one spin around the pattern :P


HankC

(JustMe) wrote in message . com...
Bob Moore wrote in message . 121...
(JustMe) wrote

I unfortunately find myself in the latter category... 47.7 hours and
no solo yet. Only two issues remain: simulated instrument flight and
landings.

With simulated instrument flight, I can do straight and level and
turns. But when combined with climbs and or descents, I don't meet the
PTS requirements. Either I blow the altitude or the heading. Take the
hood off and I can climb, turn, fiddle with the radio and look for
traffic (while chewing gum) without blowing headings or altitudes.

WHAT!!!!!!! Are you doing instrument training before solo? WHY????
Fire your instructor immediately!!! Show him this message. I have
solo'ed nit-wits in less than 20 hours.

Bob Moore
ATP CFI
PanAm (retired)

Bob,

Thanks for the reply.

Yes, I am doing hood work before solo. To be fair, the school where
I'm training has a Pre Solo Stage Check requirement. The stage check
is performed by a Designated Check Airman and not the instructor of
record.

I hesitated posting the contents of the Pre Solo Stage Check, since it
is long, but I'll do so now. The stage check last about two hours and
consists of a ground portion (basic knowledge) and a practical portion
(flight maneuvers).

The ground portion covers the following topic:

- Aerodynamics
- Aircraft Systems (Fuel and Electrical)
- FAR part 91 and 61 (certificates and documents)
- Performance and Limitations
- Class B airspace Requirements
- ATC Procedures and Light Gun
- Weather Briefing
- Runway Markings
- Weight and Balance
- Emergency Checklists
- Spin Awareness
- Land and Hold Short (students just say No!)
- Weight Turbulence Avoidance
- Intercept Procedures

The practical portions includes the following maneuvers:

- Pre-flight Inspection
- Starting Engine
- Taxing ( Communications, Normal and Crosswind Taxiing)
- Pre-takeoff Checklist
- Takeoff (Normal and Crosswind)
- Climb Out
- Descents
- Collision Avoidance
- Straight and Level
- Turns
- Steep Turns
- Ground Reference Maneuvers (S -Turns, Turns Around a Point,
Rectangular Course)
- Instrument Procedures
- Minimum Controllable Airspeed and Slow Flight
- Stalls (Departure, Approach and Accelerated)

Turning Page over

- Emergency Procedures ( Engine Failure, Engine Fire, Electrical Fire,
Emergency Descent, Emergency Approach and Landing, Radio Failure and
Open Door In-Flight)
- Landings (Normal, Crosswind, Pattern Work and Go Arounds)
- Securing and Shutdown.

The completion standards a

- Altitude plus/minus 150 feet
- Headings plus/minus 15 degrees
- Airspeed plus/minus 5 knots.

Given that I don't have something to compare against, I can't tell if
this level of proficiency before solo is excessive. Do other schools
have the same requirements?

Seeing that Instrument Procedures are a requirement, do you have any
tips, tricks or magic incantation that I can perform so that I won't
be chasing the attitude indicator and heading DG all-over the sky?


After 47.7 hours, you can reasonably ask when to expect taking the
plane out in the pattern by yourself. A solo is merely a take-off and
a landing and the shirt off your back

I almost wet my pants when my FI said to taxi to the ramp, drop him
off and take it for one spin around the pattern :P


HankC

(JustMe) wrote in message . com...
As a society, we are obsessed with Numbers. We use them to compare
ourselves to others. I make X number of dollars, I have house of Y
square feet. My car, truck or other vehicle has an engine of W liter
(cubic inches for the metrically challenged).

As such, when someone asks "What is the average hours before
soloing?", they are trying to compare themselves to the 'average'
pilot. If they do it in less than the average, then it's 'look at me,
I'm great'. If they do it in the 'average' amount of time, then they
are doing OK. But, when their number of hours is greater than the
average, they may feel that something is wrong with them. "Am I
stupid?". "Am I slow?". "Should I quit now?".

I unfortunately find myself in the latter category... 47.7 hours and
no solo yet. Only two issues remain: simulated instrument flight and
landings.

I went solo under 5 hours.
There is no average pilot. Nowadays here (New Zealand) most solos
happen after 10 hours
And my advice is get thee to another flying school, club or other
flight training center.
Its the gap between 1st solo and license that is the enjoyable bit
that you can spin out

If everything you have written here is the exact scenario you are
experiencing with this flight school, I would suggest that you look
seriously into a new flight school.
Something is WAY out of line here ! I could go into detail on what those
things are but it would take too much bandwidth to cover it all.
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
for email; take out the trash

"JustMe" wrote in message
om...
As a society, we are obsessed with Numbers. We use them to compare
ourselves to others. I make X number of dollars, I have house of Y
square feet. My car, truck or other vehicle has an engine of W liter
(cubic inches for the metrically challenged).

As such, when someone asks "What is the average hours before
soloing?", they are trying to compare themselves to the 'average'
pilot. If they do it in less than the average, then it's 'look at me,
I'm great'. If they do it in the 'average' amount of time, then they
are doing OK. But, when their number of hours is greater than the
average, they may feel that something is wrong with them. "Am I
stupid?". "Am I slow?". "Should I quit now?".

I unfortunately find myself in the latter category... 47.7 hours and
no solo yet. Only two issues remain: simulated instrument flight and
landings.

With simulated instrument flight, I can do straight and level and
turns. But when combined with climbs and or descents, I don't meet the
PTS requirements. Either I blow the altitude or the heading. Take the
hood off and I can climb, turn, fiddle with the radio and look for
traffic (while chewing gum) without blowing headings or altitudes.

Landings. I fly out of LGB (Long Beach) and LGB is cursed with
WIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIDE runways. I say cursed, since
when we fly to CMP (Compton) or TOA (Torrance), I have no problem
staying on the runway center-line. But at LGB I can track the
center-line up to the flare, after the flare at touchdown I'm off the
centerline. Am I in the weeds? No. I'm usually 20-30 feet left or
right of the centerline.

Am I stupid? I don't think so. I studied Chemical Engineering and
Computer Science in college and I work as a Software Architect for
manufacturer of large transport category airplanes. Before someone
concludes that I'm a bookworm, I've renovated two houses mostly on my
own. When I say renovate, I mean gutting most of space down to the
framing and bringing the space back to code.

Am I slow? I read slowly, but otherwise see above.

I don't think it's the instructor. He is not someone who is teaching
just to build time and then move on to bigger airplanes. The only
comment I could make and I suspect that it would apply to many
instructors, is that he points too many things out. Yes, I know I blew
the altitude or the heading, pointing it out each time can get really
old, really fast. A suggestion for CFIs, sometimes it's better to wait
until the maneuver is completed before saying something. Of course, if
it's a safety of flight issue, then by all means say something.

At the school where I am learning, the instructor grades your
performance after each flight on a scale from 1 to 5. Where 1 is
deemed excellent and 5 is considered unsatisfactory. With 3 being
average. Reviewing my training records, I haven't scored greater than
a 3 since lesson number 13. From lesson 14 through lesson 33, I've
scored average to excellent.

Should I quit now? That is what I'm pondering. 47.7 hours and still no
solo.

Constructive suggestions or criticisms welcomed. Please refrain from
only saying 'don't give up'.

"JustMe" wrote in message

I unfortunately find myself in the latter category... 47.7 hours and
no solo yet. Only two issues remain: simulated instrument flight and
landings.

Somebody check me on this, but, WHAT?! 47.7 hours and not even a solo
would indicate a failure as an instructor. If a qualified instructor has
had you in the airplane that long and has not successfully trained you to
fly around the pattern a couple of times, I don't think it's your issue.
It's either gross ineptitude on the part of the educator or a scam. Anybody
disagree?

This is what I would do: (I'm private and instrument rated, working on my
commercial, got my private at about 55 hrs.)

Go to a different FBO and instructor entirely, with your logbook and medical
certificate and ask them to take you up for an hour. After an hour, ask
the instructor if he thinks, based on your hour of flying, you should have
soloed already.

They probably won't say "yes!", and will answer cautiously having only flown
with you for an hour, but the instructor might also be able to indicate
whether he thinks you might be better off learning elsewhere.

Good luck and, yeah, don't give up at LEAST until you solo.

-c

"Blanche" wrote in message

So what? Are you in a race with someone? The only downside of
this many hours is the money. That's all.

I agree with your statement, but at $100+ an hour for dual time with
instruction, that's a LOT of money. That's a huge chunk of instrument
training, cross country work, etc.

For example, for my instrument rating I blew over a thousand dollars
practicing for "special routines that the examiner loved to fail people on,"
until I could do them in my sleep. The examiner didn't even touch those
manuevers (Pattern B, etc) and threw a whole battery of stuff at me that I'd
never done dual. (And I passed, first try, in IMC. So...maybe I didn't
blow the money, but I have to take out a loan now to finish my commercial
training.)

And in a year or so, (assuming you still have a job) you probably won't
even remember it.

Exactly. In a year or so, I'll still be paying for all that Pattern B
practice.

I think this guy should go ride with a different instructor and operation
and let somebody in the plane with him evaluate his skill. Unless the
student is a complete space cadet, 40+ hours and no solo demonstrates
failure on the part of the instructor, not the student.

Hell, I have a great idea for Discovery Wings: See if you can train a
monkey to solo (simulator) in 40 hours.

-c

We've recently had a young lady come to us after failing to solo after 30
hours - we had her soloing in an additional 1.5.

Sometimes some instructors are better suited to students with particular
types of issues.

The other problem you'll be having right about now is starting to psych
yourself out - hang in there - but make a change - after 47 hours you're
probably not going to get there unless you find out what the true obstacle
is and make a change to overcome it.

I'd try a few other (experienced) instructors to see if they can progress
you.

Cheers,

CC


"Bob Moore" wrote in message
21...
(JustMe) wrote

I unfortunately find myself in the latter category... 47.7 hours and
no solo yet. Only two issues remain: simulated instrument flight and
landings.

With simulated instrument flight, I can do straight and level and
turns. But when combined with climbs and or descents, I don't meet the
PTS requirements. Either I blow the altitude or the heading. Take the
hood off and I can climb, turn, fiddle with the radio and look for
traffic (while chewing gum) without blowing headings or altitudes.

WHAT!!!!!!! Are you doing instrument training before solo? WHY????
Fire your instructor immediately!!! Show him this message. I have
solo'ed nit-wits in less than 20 hours.

Bob Moore
ATP CFI
PanAm (retired)

"gatt" wrote in message
...


Hell, I have a great idea for Discovery Wings: See if you can train a
monkey to solo (simulator) in 40 hours.


Great idea, but they'd have to make the monkey and the CFI wear different
color shirts so viewers can tell who is who.

-cwk.

Try another CFI ask him for a true opinion.
"JustMe" wrote in message
om...
As a society, we are obsessed with Numbers. We use them to compare
ourselves to others. I make X number of dollars, I have house of Y
square feet. My car, truck or other vehicle has an engine of W liter
(cubic inches for the metrically challenged).

As such, when someone asks "What is the average hours before
soloing?", they are trying to compare themselves to the 'average'
pilot. If they do it in less than the average, then it's 'look at me,
I'm great'. If they do it in the 'average' amount of time, then they
are doing OK. But, when their number of hours is greater than the
average, they may feel that something is wrong with them. "Am I
stupid?". "Am I slow?". "Should I quit now?".

I unfortunately find myself in the latter category... 47.7 hours and
no solo yet. Only two issues remain: simulated instrument flight and
landings.

With simulated instrument flight, I can do straight and level and
turns. But when combined with climbs and or descents, I don't meet the
PTS requirements. Either I blow the altitude or the heading. Take the
hood off and I can climb, turn, fiddle with the radio and look for
traffic (while chewing gum) without blowing headings or altitudes.

Landings. I fly out of LGB (Long Beach) and LGB is cursed with
WIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIDE runways. I say cursed, since
when we fly to CMP (Compton) or TOA (Torrance), I have no problem
staying on the runway center-line. But at LGB I can track the
center-line up to the flare, after the flare at touchdown I'm off the
centerline. Am I in the weeds? No. I'm usually 20-30 feet left or
right of the centerline.

Am I stupid? I don't think so. I studied Chemical Engineering and
Computer Science in college and I work as a Software Architect for
manufacturer of large transport category airplanes. Before someone
concludes that I'm a bookworm, I've renovated two houses mostly on my
own. When I say renovate, I mean gutting most of space down to the
framing and bringing the space back to code.

Am I slow? I read slowly, but otherwise see above.

I don't think it's the instructor. He is not someone who is teaching
just to build time and then move on to bigger airplanes. The only
comment I could make and I suspect that it would apply to many
instructors, is that he points too many things out. Yes, I know I blew
the altitude or the heading, pointing it out each time can get really
old, really fast. A suggestion for CFIs, sometimes it's better to wait
until the maneuver is completed before saying something. Of course, if
it's a safety of flight issue, then by all means say something.

At the school where I am learning, the instructor grades your
performance after each flight on a scale from 1 to 5. Where 1 is
deemed excellent and 5 is considered unsatisfactory. With 3 being
average. Reviewing my training records, I haven't scored greater than
a 3 since lesson number 13. From lesson 14 through lesson 33, I've
scored average to excellent.

Should I quit now? That is what I'm pondering. 47.7 hours and still no
solo.

Constructive suggestions or criticisms welcomed. Please refrain from
only saying 'don't give up'.