Newbie Qs on stalls and spins

Andrew Sarangan wrote:

Every landing involves a stall.

Almost all of my landings do not involve a stall. The aircraft is flown onto the
ground in a three-point attitude just above the stall. That's if I do it right.

In the last couple of years I owned my 150, none of my landings in that plane
involved a stall.

George Patterson
If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have
been looking for it.

Andrew Sarangan wrote:
Every landing involves a stall.

Nope.


Besides, spins are aerobatic maneuvers and you are required to have
parachutes unless you are doing it as part of a certificate or rating.

Nope - you don't need to be "doing it as part of a certificate or rating".

Hilton

Besides, spins are aerobatic maneuvers and you are required to have
parachutes unless you are doing it as part of a certificate or rating.

Nope - you don't need to be "doing it as part of a certificate or rating".

Hilton

Cites please?
--
Jim in NC


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"Morgans" wrote in message ...
Besides, spins are aerobatic maneuvers and you are required to have
parachutes unless you are doing it as part of a certificate or rating.

Nope - you don't need to be "doing it as part of a certificate or rating".

Hilton

Cites please?

I believe he's referring to 91.307(c). It says :

(c) Unless each occupant of the aircraft is wearing an approved
parachute, no pilot of a civil aircraft carrying any person (other
than a crewmember) may execute any intentional maneuver that exceeds—

(1) A bank of 60 degrees relative to the horizon; or

(2) A nose-up or nose-down attitude of 30 degrees relative to the
horizon.

"C" basically restricts the rule to pilots of aircraft that are
carrying persons other than crewmembers. So, I can go out and spin my
Cherokee solo, but if I'm carrying a passenger, we both require
chutes. Then there is another exception :

(d) Paragraph (c) of this section does not apply to—

(1) Flight tests for pilot certification or rating; or

(2) Spins and other flight maneuvers required by the regulations for
any certificate or rating when given by—

(i) A certificated flight instructor; or

(ii) An airline transport pilot instructing in accordance with §61.67
of this chapter.

So, the parachute rule also does not apply if I'm doing a flight
test, or if I'm performing spins or other maneuvers required for any
certificate or rating, as long as there's an instructor. It doesn't
say that I have to be in training for a particular rating. The (2)
part of the rule excepts the type of manuevers, it doesn't require
that you be training for a specific rating.

This rule allows an instructor to demonstrate a spin to a PPL
student without requiring that they wear parachutes. Even though
there is no spin training required in the PPL, the maneuver itself is
allowed because it is "required by the regulations for any certificate
or rating".

To me (not being a CFI), this means that I can spin my Cherokee
without chutes either solo, or with an instructor, but if the person
in the next seat is not an instructor or ATP, chutes are required.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

"John Galban" wrote in message
m...
To me (not being a CFI), this means that I can spin my Cherokee
without chutes either solo, or with an instructor,

Are there Cherokees that permit intentional spins? The Arrow and Warrior
POHs prohibit them.

--Gary

"John Galban" wrote

To me (not being a CFI), this means that I can spin my Cherokee
without chutes either solo, or with an instructor, but if the person
in the next seat is not an instructor or ATP, chutes are required.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

So CFI's get to do stuff that we can not do without them. With no chutes,
CFI's and students, and others all splat the same. Just a comment.
--
Jim in NC


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On 17 Nov 2004 12:12:55 -0800, (John Galban)
wrote:

(2) Spins and other flight maneuvers required by the regulations for
any certificate or rating when given by—

(i) A certificated flight instructor; or

So ... the instructor who spun the Cub with me in the back was in
violation of the FARs? The maneuver was required for my certificate!

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
the blog www.danford.net

"Ramapriya" wrote

1. Since I don't think I've experienced a stall or spin before, is it
a nice sensation to experience as a passenger, or wouldn't one be able
to tell?

A stall might be felt as very unusual for a passenger, but unless the
passenger knew about flying, he/she might not know *what* happened.

Definitly would know *something* just happened. g

2. Is it ok for pilots to practice stalls and spins on commercial
passenger aircraft in mid-flight?

Commercial flights are in the buisness of getting their customers where they
are going, as comfortably as possible. They do low bank angles, low G's,
and gentle climbs/descents. (except on initial departure, to get high enoug
for reasons of getting the noise away from the people on the ground) Stalls
and spins are not gentle.

I ask, since I don't think it's
happened on any flight I've flown so far - unless some pilot did it
without informing the passengers :\

Ramapriya

Airline pilots do their training for such things, and emergency trainings
(engine out, unusual attitudes, and more) in simulators, and some (or most)
in full motion simulators, that tilt around to give the sensation of these
thing really happening. One reason they do this, is that it is too
expensive to do it in a plane that is empty, and not earning money, plus the
fact that the plane crashing, because the event was not dealt with very
well, would be, well, very bad. :-)
--
Jim in NC


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Bill Denton wrote:

Generally, I am using the term "stall" to indicate a state where the
object
is producing zero lift, and "flying" to indicate that some lift is
being
produced. However, I sometimes use flying to indicate that the object
is
generating enough lift to raise itself and it's load above the earth.
I will
try to be more consistent and clear in the future.

I don't claim that this is absolutely, or in any way correct, but
this is
how I am using the terms

Bill

Without getting too technical.

An aircraft is "flying" regardless of whether it is climbing, decending
or "flying" level.
By using the throttle and the attitude of the nose of the aircraft the
pilot controls the relative airflow over the wing and thus determines
the mode of flight he wants.

Climbing - Lift is Greater than weight
Level - Lift = weight
Descending (including landing) - Lift if less than weight

All the above are controlled "flying"

The stall is uncontrolled "flying" and the only time this should happen
whilst "flying" is in stall recovery practice, aerobatics and sometimes
a second prior to touchdown.

Phil


--
mhquay
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Posted via OziPilots Online [ http://www.OziPilotsOnline.com.au ]
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Phil wrote:

Climbing - Lift is Greater than weight
Level - Lift = weight
Descending (including landing) - Lift if less than weight

This is substantially incorrect. As long as there's no acceleration in
the vertical or horizontal direction, lift and weight are essentially
equal, whether climbing, descending, or flying at a level altitude.
F=ma, and all that. If a=1, then L=W. This is a common misconception,
and until the climb or descent angle gets large, so that thrust/drag
become a substantial portion of the vertical component of force, L=W.

You don't climb because you've got excess lift - you climb because you
had excess lift for a short period of time which accelerated you
vertically so that you have a upwardly vertical component of velocity.
Conversely, you descend because you had insufficient lift for a short
period of time which accelerated you vertically so that you have a
downwardly vertical component of velocity. The LW periods were short,
and are NOT the steady state conditions.

The stall is uncontrolled "flying" and the only time this should
happen
whilst "flying" is in stall recovery practice, aerobatics and
sometimes
a second prior to touchdown.

Stalls can be completely "controlled" flying. I fly a COZY canard
aircraft, and I can fly all day with the canard stalled. I've done so
straight and level and in up to 60 degree banked turns. I've flown in
an acquaintance's Glastar (not a canard - looks a lot like a C-150), and
was able to do pretty much the same (although he only demonstrated 30
degree banked turns while stalled). In both aircraft, we maintained
full control at all times.

Just because your C-150, C-172 or Warrior (what I used to fly) can't do
it doesn't mean that that's the be-all and end-all of aerodynamics :-).

--
Marc J. Zeitlin
http://marc.zeitlin.home.comcast.net/
http://www.cozybuilders.org/
Copyright (c) 2004