In wave, in blue hole at cloud level, hole closes, in IMC, then what?

True, but nothing wrong with expanding the discussion to the more realistic scenario of what happened recently (which no doubt inspired the OP to start this thread) while still staying on topic.
And yes, one never stop learning and training, my comment was towards the common remark to take a flight with an instructor, as if instructors always have more experience. Many instructors have more experience in takeoff and landings, but not in soaring, XC, wave and extreem weather.

Ramy

On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 at 11:37:02 PM UTC-4, Tango Eight wrote:
OP posed a scenario involving IMC in smooth lift at low speed. Now guys are complaining that some of the tips given won't work at redline in rough air.

On Thursday, April 9, 2015 at 12:04:03 AM UTC-4, Darryl Ramm wrote:
so it's not particularly interesting to other folks here, who may be trying to get the topic on a rail relevant to actual problems experienced in real wave flying ...

The Sierra wave scenario is really being closed in IMC near VNE in smooth air (if bombing along you are maybe 10,000'or so higher than the rotor). No turbulence necessary to have a very bad day.

OP here. I'm happy to see discussion of the Sierra Wave scenario, but the scenario I posed is closer to the wave flying that I do in Vermont.

I'm flying in 'baby wave' at 50-60 knots to maintain position in the lift, maybe a little faster if I need to crab north or south to stay above the changing blue hole below. I may fly at Vno when I'm diving through the blue hole. I'm not flying XC and not anywhere near Vne. I can even stay close to the airport. When I'm ready (if ever) for something considerably more difficult, I'll go to the Mount Washington Wave Camp in NH.

It is not the Sierra wave or Mount Washington, but it is still risky. It is often 'wet', the blue holes are smallish, they open, close and move around.. The rotor can become unflyable (while you are still on the ground or above the cloud deck) and one expects rotor in the landing pattern, strong crosswind and sink on final. Landing at 70-80 knots is standard fare.

WRT turbulence in the cloud deck layer, my understanding is that the air in that layer is smooth since the cloud is formed by the laminar flow of air. The cloud forms where it hit the high pressure isobar and dissipates at the low pressure isobar. Basically smooth air, no convection... Am I wrong about this? So assuming not, descending through the cloud deck with a benign spiral seems plausible. Avoiding terrain is a issue and a moving map seems prudent. There is a good possibility of clear air above the valley floor, but the cap cloud likely touches the upwind ridge.

Below the solid cloud deck, there are rotor clouds and turbulence a plenty, and the gamble is that one pops out of the cloud deck between the rotor clouds. When that happens I'll be flying at 50-60 knots unless I get spit out of a rotor cloud and into a spin.

On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 at 12:02:26 PM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Wed, 08 Apr 2015 11:41:01 -0600, Bob Whelan wrote:

In re Bob K.'s and Steve L.'s comments elsewhere on this branch, "Ha ha
ha. Oh the knowing joy of those familiar with 90-degree landing flaps
(and I'm one of 'em)!!!" Regrettably (in subsequently broken
ship/traumatized pilot terms), that particular religious war was lost
long, long ago.

Around 2004 there was another benign spiral thread which caused me to be
a bit of experimenting in an ASW-20. I found that, in calm evening air
trimmed for best glide (57 kts) and zero flap (position 3) and flying
straight, it slowly developed a 25 second phugoid oscillation with an
associated +/- 5kt speed oscillation.

I also tried for a benign spiral: zero flap, wheel down and brakes out,
same trimmed speed and going hands free after setting up a 20-30 degree
bank. After even half a circle the bank angle had increased, the nose had
dropped the speed was increasing. I never let it go beyond that point and
concluded that the ASW-20 doesn't have a benign spiral.

I haven't tried either experiment with the Libelle but should do so this
season, as its always good stuff to know. BTW, my H.201 is s/n 82, so it
dates from before the move to the B series, so it has balsa sandwich
flying surface skins, the small tailplane and upper and lower surface
brakes.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Martin,
I have H201 SN 81 and it will do a beautiful benign spiral! I've had "hands off" for 15-20 minutes when descending from altitude.
Love the Libelle!
Jay

On Thu, 09 Apr 2015 07:27:44 -0700, JayM wrote:

I have H201 SN 81 and it will do a beautiful benign spiral! I've had
"hands off" for 15-20 minutes when descending from altitude.
Love the Libelle!

Thanks for the info. I'll definitely check that out next time I fly.

Curiosity: my Libelle was one of two that the GSA (UK forces soaring
association) bought in early 1970. The other one went to the 1970 World
Champs at Marfa. Is that your Libelle? What trim setting do you prefer
for a benign spiral?


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Friday, April 10, 2015 at 5:11:12 AM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Thu, 09 Apr 2015 07:27:44 -0700, JayM wrote:

I have H201 SN 81 and it will do a beautiful benign spiral! I've had
"hands off" for 15-20 minutes when descending from altitude.
Love the Libelle!

Thanks for the info. I'll definitely check that out next time I fly.

Curiosity: my Libelle was one of two that the GSA (UK forces soaring
association) bought in early 1970. The other one went to the 1970 World
Champs at Marfa. Is that your Libelle? What trim setting do you prefer
for a benign spiral?


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

No, Mine was never in any National or higher competition according to the logbooks. I trim for 50kts, pull full dive brakes and take hands off the stick, feet off the rudders.
Jay

At 14:08 08 April 2015, son_of_flubber wrote:
So I'm flying in a blue hole in wave lift of 5 m/s, trimmed to 50 knots,
in=
clear air with a cloud layer upwind and downwind, cloud top above and
clou=
d base below. Suddenly I find myself in IMC. What are my options?

My glider is capable of benign spiral. I open the spoilers, (already
trimme=
d to 50 knots) and let go of stick and rudder. Then I mentally rehearse
my=
bail out procedure and expect to come out below the cloud (or possibly
abo=
ve). It seems like I should decisively and without hesitation initiate
the=
spiral ASAP, while the glider is still relatively level and at cruising
ai=
rspeed.

Suggestions?

Turn on the turn and slip/AH and descend to the waypoint, well clear of
hills, I have created just in case the gap closes.

any possibility to maintain a heading using the moving map while in the clouds to prevent the start of a spiral dive?

On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 at 3:33:10 PM UTC-4, Matt Herron Jr. wrote:
any possibility to maintain a heading using the moving map while in the clouds to prevent the start of a spiral dive?

That's what Bob Spielman tried to do.

-T8

On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 at 12:33:10 PM UTC-7, Matt Herron Jr. wrote:
any possibility to maintain a heading using the moving map while in the clouds to prevent the start of a spiral dive?

And as you slow down in strong wave you can start flying sideways/backwards and the moving map or fake instrument it is driving "topples". If you want to rely on instruments, they need to be real inertial instrument (and lots of training/practice) in an environment like that.

The near-VNE speed that Ramy described is the eater of gliders in this scenario in strong Wave.

At 19:48 08 April 2015, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 at 12:33:10 PM UTC-7, Matt Herron Jr. wrote:
any possibility to maintain a heading using the moving map while in the
c=
louds to prevent the start of a spiral dive?

And as you slow down in strong wave you can start flying
sideways/backwards=
and the moving map or fake instrument it is driving "topples". If you
want=
to rely on instruments, they need to be real inertial instrument (and
lots=
of training/practice) in an environment like that.

The near-VNE speed that Ramy described is the eater of gliders in this
scen=
ario in strong Wave.

I Accept dirty as a good idea because the shorter the time in cloud the
less
chance of messing it up.
But is it worth deploying the turbo but not starting it ,because with the
brakes out and gear down and turbo up the drag will be enormous,it may
even to keep you below VNE.
However you would want to know what the spin characteristics are in that
configuration.
Any thoughts?
Jon