Buying a glider, advice on type and prices

The site says something like approved life of 3000 hours with extensions so maybe that's the one that's now been upgraded to 12,000 hours. (will check) That's one reason I was looking for a more recent model in case GRP gliders do have problems in later life. Just about anything will outlast me but I'm thinking resale value.

http://szd.com.pl/downloads/4fdeffe8...l-10039816.pdf is the document which extends the life of all SZD-55 to 12k. The associated Flight Manual must be amended with the 2012 changes, which is noted at the end of the EASA document. Mainly they talk about what inspections have to be done periodically, and change the bits of the manual that talk about the authorized lifespan of the glider.

Most gliders get an initial 3,000 hr approval, then as they approach that, they are assessed by the factory to see if they have problems. If not, additional 3,000 hrs. As they approach 6,000, same, etc., until design life is reached. I don't know what the design life of Schempp-Hirth, Schleicher, etc are (I know ASK-21's are at 18,000 hrs). I think of most GRP gliders as having infinite lives, though gelcoat must be refinished periodically.

On Tuesday, August 30, 2016 at 11:53:20 PM UTC+12, Dan Daly wrote:
The site says something like approved life of 3000 hours with extensions so maybe that's the one that's now been upgraded to 12,000 hours. (will check) That's one reason I was looking for a more recent model in case GRP gliders do have problems in later life. Just about anything will outlast me but I'm thinking resale value.

http://szd.com.pl/downloads/4fdeffe8...l-10039816.pdf is the document which extends the life of all SZD-55 to 12k. The associated Flight Manual must be amended with the 2012 changes, which is noted at the end of the EASA document. Mainly they talk about what inspections have to be done periodically, and change the bits of the manual that talk about the authorized lifespan of the glider.

Most gliders get an initial 3,000 hr approval, then as they approach that, they are assessed by the factory to see if they have problems. If not, additional 3,000 hrs. As they approach 6,000, same, etc., until design life is reached. I don't know what the design life of Schempp-Hirth, Schleicher, etc are (I know ASK-21's are at 18,000 hrs). I think of most GRP gliders as having infinite lives, though gelcoat must be refinished periodically.

OK .. *why* must gelcoat be refinished periodically?

I suppose eventually it might start letting moisture through into the structure, but I suspect most people are refinishing it at less than 50% (maybe much less) of its potential protective lifetime for purely aesthetic reasons.

Does cracked gelcoat have much of an effect on aerodynamics? One that someone other than a top competition pilot would notice?

On Sunday, August 28, 2016 at 5:15:23 AM UTC-4, John wrote:
Returned to gliding after many years and out of touch with types and prices.

Have narrowed it down to one of these types but nothing set in concrete.

ASW20, ASW27, ASW28, Discus, Discus 2 or Ventus.

Was originally looking to buy a lower cost glider but with interest rates being so poor, I am thinking that a good glider may be a better investment than money in the bank.

Any suggestions and a rough guide on prices? (appreciate that it ultimately depends on level of equipment and condition.

Thanks

Here is a wild card which will attract a lot of derision !

The Kestrel 19 is in an orphan class, but represents best L/D
per Euro. I owned one for 10 years, and I and several friends who
flew it rated it a very nice glider to fly ( except in rain).
it climbs well, is fairly docile, and does excellent short field
landings. I flew it for the first NA 750 km triangle thanks to the
cockpit comfort for 8 1/2 hrs.
The gel coat was schwabellac, less of a problem than later coatings.
May be easy to buy but hard to sell. Hardware support not known to me but there are many in the UK needing it.
Heavy wings, but there are excellent all body covers available for
1000 euros; leave it securely tied down and go flying in
20mins.

John Firth , an old no longer bold , pilot. Ottawa.

On Thursday, September 1, 2016 at 12:37:36 PM UTC-7, firsys wrote:
On Sunday, August 28, 2016 at 5:15:23 AM UTC-4, John wrote:
Returned to gliding after many years and out of touch with types and prices.

Have narrowed it down to one of these types but nothing set in concrete.

ASW20, ASW27, ASW28, Discus, Discus 2 or Ventus.

Was originally looking to buy a lower cost glider but with interest rates being so poor, I am thinking that a good glider may be a better investment than money in the bank.

Any suggestions and a rough guide on prices? (appreciate that it ultimately depends on level of equipment and condition.

Thanks

Here is a wild card which will attract a lot of derision !

The Kestrel 19 is in an orphan class, but represents best L/D
per Euro. I owned one for 10 years, and I and several friends who
flew it rated it a very nice glider to fly ( except in rain).
it climbs well, is fairly docile, and does excellent short field
landings. I flew it for the first NA 750 km triangle thanks to the
cockpit comfort for 8 1/2 hrs.
The gel coat was schwabellac, less of a problem than later coatings.
May be easy to buy but hard to sell. Hardware support not known to me but there are many in the UK needing it.
Heavy wings, but there are excellent all body covers available for
1000 euros; leave it securely tied down and go flying in
20mins.

John Firth , an old no longer bold , pilot. Ottawa.

If we're talking L/D per Euro the Nimbus 3 is well placed too.

Craig

On Friday, September 2, 2016 at 7:37:36 AM UTC+12, firsys wrote:
On Sunday, August 28, 2016 at 5:15:23 AM UTC-4, John wrote:
Returned to gliding after many years and out of touch with types and prices.

Have narrowed it down to one of these types but nothing set in concrete.

ASW20, ASW27, ASW28, Discus, Discus 2 or Ventus.

Was originally looking to buy a lower cost glider but with interest rates being so poor, I am thinking that a good glider may be a better investment than money in the bank.

Any suggestions and a rough guide on prices? (appreciate that it ultimately depends on level of equipment and condition.

Thanks

Here is a wild card which will attract a lot of derision !

The Kestrel 19 is in an orphan class, but represents best L/D
per Euro. I owned one for 10 years, and I and several friends who
flew it rated it a very nice glider to fly ( except in rain).
it climbs well, is fairly docile, and does excellent short field
landings. I flew it for the first NA 750 km triangle thanks to the
cockpit comfort for 8 1/2 hrs.
The gel coat was schwabellac, less of a problem than later coatings.
May be easy to buy but hard to sell. Hardware support not known to me but there are many in the UK needing it.
Heavy wings, but there are excellent all body covers available for
1000 euros; leave it securely tied down and go flying in
20mins.

Being basically a Glasflugel design (and not a Std Libelle) it should be well made, comfortable, and without vices.

Max L/D isn't everything, but looking at a few internet threads and spreadsheets over the years, it looks quite ok at a decent cruising speed too. The spreadsheet I looked at worked out to about 29:1 at 80 knots.

I helped derig a Kestrel a year or two ago.
The memory remains vivid. You need at
least four very good friends from the local
weight lifting gym.

At 21:14 01 September 2016, Bruce Hoult
wrote:
On Friday, September 2, 2016 at 7:37:36
AM UTC+12, firsys wrote:
On Sunday, August 28, 2016 at 5:15:23
AM UTC-4, John wrote:
Returned to gliding after many years
and out of touch with types and
prices.

Have narrowed it down to one of
these types but nothing set in
concrete.

ASW20, ASW27, ASW28, Discus,
Discus 2 or Ventus.

Was originally looking to buy a lower
cost glider but with interest
rates being so poor, I am thinking that a
good glider may be a better
investment than money in the bank.

Any suggestions and a rough guide
on prices? (appreciate that it
ultimately depends on level of equipment
and condition.

Thanks

Here is a wild card which will attract a
lot of derision !

The Kestrel 19 is in an orphan class,
but represents best L/D
per Euro. I owned one for 10 years, and
I and several friends who
flew it rated it a very nice glider to fly (
except in rain).
it climbs well, is fairly docile, and does
excellent short field
landings. I flew it for the first NA 750
km triangle thanks to the
cockpit comfort for 8 1/2 hrs.
The gel coat was schwabellac, less of
a problem than later coatings.
May be easy to buy but hard to sell.
Hardware support not known to me
but there are many in the UK needing it.
Heavy wings, but there are excellent all
body covers available for
20mins.

Being basically a Glasflugel design (and
not a Std Libelle) it should be
well made, comfortable, and without
vices.

Max L/D isn't everything, but looking at a
few internet threads and
spreadsheets over the years, it looks
quite ok at a decent cruising speed
too. The spreadsheet I looked at worked
out to about 29:1 at 80 knots.

On Thursday, September 1, 2016 at 5:15:06 PM UTC-5, George Haeh wrote:
I helped derig a Kestrel a year or two ago.
The memory remains vivid. You need at
least four very good friends from the local
weight lifting gym.


Rubbish. That may be your experience, but not mine. I one man rig my 604. You just need proper fixtures.

Steve Leonard

PS: The center wing section on the 604 weighs in at roughly 400 lbs. And with proper fixtures, you don't have to lift it.

PPS: The memory can't be too vivid, as you can't recall if it was one or two years ago. :-)

In my view the glider market worldwide is quite sophisticated. If one type tends to be cheaper than others then it is for one or more of a variety of good reasons. I would always buy a good example of a well valued glider and would then be sure of having a glider without drawbacks and that was easy to sell.

The glider market is sophisticated, true. But that doesn't mean it's immune to fads, rumors, and conventional wisdom.

"Easy to sell" has several dimensions. At the right price, any glider can be sold. But there are more potential buyers for a type that's in greater demand (hence, a higher price). What you want is a below-market price on a popular glider. Good luck.

In the meantime, I feel about my ASW 24 like Mike Opitz does about his Discus 2, and I've owned mine for 24 years. The gel coat is showing its age now (though not terribly so) but it still goes with the rest of the Standard Class, is a delight to fly, has Gerhard Waibel's safety cockpit (why I bought it instead of the more popular first-generation Discus at the time), has not suffered the spar waves of some later Schleicher models, is easy to solo rig with the right equipment (I've been solo rigging since 1982), and is comfortable for my 6'3" (1.9m) frame, albeit with a few tweaks from the factory.

But because the initial version didn't have winglets, "everyone knows the '24 doesn't climb well." This was not helped by Schleicher's clever marketing for the ASW 28, which purported to "fix" the problem. In reality, the '24 climbs great with the right winglets. Mine are from Hank Nixon here in the U.S., which are now approved by Schleicher, as I understand it, but there are others.

But...when the time comes to sell it, there will be fewer potential buyers. It's the same challenge I faced when I sold my well-maintained, competition profiled/tuned LS-3. Everyone wanted an ASW 20. The performance was identical but the '20 was (is) almost a "cult" glider in the U.S. And a new buyer (the logical candidate for, at that time, a 13-year-old glider) was more interested in keeping up with his/her buddies, and not just in climb and glide.

Here's an off-the-wall idea. Decent performance, easy to fly, light weight, durable gel coat, large owner group, much lower investment than even a generation-old Standard Class ship: has anyone suggested a Libelle 201? I know Glasflugel has been out of business for decades (most of these gliders are 40 years old) but spares are available from Streifeneder. I flew one for years, including in our first 15M Nationals, and loved every minute of it. Many in the U.S. came in the Eberle "clamshell" trailers that made rigging a trivial task.

Chip Bearden

Long time listener, first time caller...

Looks like I'm in the same situation as John 37. I'm returning to the sport after many years (since about 2000) and kind of wondering which ship to buy. I owned a Libelle 201 previously and put about 450hr on her. The obvious choices are something like a Discus, ASW-24, or an LS. I really don't have a limit on how much I can spend, but a $50K-$60K (US) budget seems reasonable. Except for casual club racing, I have no desire whatsoever to race (20+ years sailboat racing, I done), so having the latest and greatest ship really isn't a huge priority. I'll being using the plane just for X-counrty and pleasure flying in the western US (California/Nevada) and I'll probably fly about 50hr/year.

So other then the obvious choices, I'm a little curious about the LAK and the HpH ships, which really were not around when I left the sport. Anyone care to tell me the pros/cons of buying a LAK or HpH or other? How would you spend $50K-$60K if you were looking to buy?