Cheap sailplanes

I'll throw something else into the pot here. The golf club I'm a member of
has a golf gaademy on site. Youngsters of 15 to 16 with handicaps of 10 and
under can apply to join the academy for a year. At the end of which the can
acheive 2 'A' Level credits. These are accepted as credit towards a place at
university with a view to careers in sports management. Is this sort of
thing a possible source of future soaring pilots? How about gliding as an
optional high school subject?

Kids are under pressure to gain an education, offering a year of flying and
ground training with a tangible benefit in front of them may prove to be
irresistable and we all know that once the bug bites it bites hard. Flying
does offer benefits in terms of personal development, discipline, decision
making, planning. These could be sold as the foundation pieces to several
careers to education authorities if our controlling bodies were given the
brief to do so.

Ian

In article ,
"tango4" wrote:

I'll throw something else into the pot here. The golf club I'm a member of
has a golf gaademy on site. Youngsters of 15 to 16 with handicaps of 10 and
under can apply to join the academy for a year. At the end of which the can
acheive 2 'A' Level credits. These are accepted as credit towards a place at
university with a view to careers in sports management. Is this sort of
thing a possible source of future soaring pilots? How about gliding as an
optional high school subject?

Something like this may now be possible here in New Zealand. The
new(ish) NCEA structure allows credits for activities outside school. I
understand that things such as drama and dance and music are in the
process of being put into the system.

We already have a pretty good and well-organized syllabus in gliding,
with well defined acheivements and goals. It probably wouldn't be a
huge effort to get into the NCEA system.

I have a 14 year old daughter who I've taken gliding a few times --
though not for three or four years (and not because I don't offer). I
ran a straw poll past her and some friends. The response: "We could
learn to fly instead of doing geography? Cooooool!"

--
Bruce | 41.1670S | \ spoken | -+-
Hoult | 174.8263E | /\ here. | ----------O----------

I have a 14 year old daughter who I've taken gliding a few times --
though not for three or four years (and not because I don't offer). I
ran a straw poll past her and some friends. The response: "We could
learn to fly instead of doing geography? Cooooool!"

--
Bruce | 41.1670S | \ spoken | -+-
Hoult | 174.8263E | /\ here. | ----------O----------

and what's really cool is that they get to learn some practical geography,
mathematics and physics without even realising it!

Ian

In article ,
"tango4" wrote:
I have a 14 year old daughter who I've taken gliding a few times --
though not for three or four years (and not because I don't offer). I
ran a straw poll past her and some friends. The response: "We could
learn to fly instead of doing geography? Cooooool!"

and what's really cool is that they get to learn some practical geography,
mathematics and physics without even realising it!

Yes indeed :-)

--
Bruce | 41.1670S | \ spoken | -+-
Hoult | 174.8263E | /\ here. | ----------O----------

"Kilo Charlie" wrote in message
news:yB2sd.19804$KO5.10476@fed1read02...
Interesting argument. Also interesting responses some of which have
nothing
to do with your original post. Must just be the grumpy winter lurkers.

I agree with you. Soaring has to be "cool" again in order to have it
survive. I'm not sure that reducing the costs somewhat wouldn't help but
nevertheless that alone will not save it.

It is an instant gratification world out there. Why should a kid spend
countless hours learning how to do something and paying the dues by
watching
others do it in front of them when they can get out the X-box or Gameboy
and
go at it with minimal instruction, cost or delay?

Soaring is not much of a spectator sport but one small part of the
visibility has been taken away in the name of safety (aka liability) in
the
US by a push to totally abolish low finishes. It is clear with the sold
out
status of the UK Smokin Vids and the fact that the UK Junior Soaring Team
has so much fun with these finishes that it is interesting to young pilots
and spectators. I'm not advocating a "Redbull" type of approach to it but
the safety/liability issue has grown out of control in the US. For some
reason soaring has attracted more than its share of curmudgeons. Sports
like hang gliding with their speed courses for example, have taken the
step
to make themselves more visible to the folks on the ground.

Casey Lenox
KC
Phoenix

I'm not aware that it's had any impact on the growth of HG from all
indications.

"Kilo Charlie" wrote in message
news:yB2sd.19804$KO5.10476@fed1read02...
Interesting argument. Also interesting responses some of which have
nothing
to do with your original post. Must just be the grumpy winter lurkers.

Sorry but the origional post said that the lack of cheap gliders was
responsible for the decline in gliding. Not so, in the UK the bad flying
weather over the past three years has put paid to more of our members than
anything else.

I agree with you. Soaring has to be "cool" again in order to have it
survive. I'm not sure that reducing the costs somewhat wouldn't help but
nevertheless that alone will not save it.

Come fly with us, no waiting time to join just pay us £130 for a years
membership, £2 /min aerotow and 20p /min hire, how cheap do you want it to
be.

It is an instant gratification world out there. Why should a kid spend
countless hours learning how to do something and paying the dues by
watching
others do it in front of them when they can get out the X-box or Gameboy
and
go at it with minimal instruction, cost or delay?

I can agree with that!!! But I had great fun throwing my B4 about the sky
trying to loose the last 5k feet. You dont get that with an XBox.

Peter.

Sorry but the origional post said that the lack of cheap gliders was
responsible for the decline in gliding. Not so, in the UK the bad flying
weather over the past three years has put paid to more of our members than
anything else.

Mostly my comment was meant for the usual/typical "anti-racing" post another
person made. It seems like there needs to be little provocation for some
folks feeling the need to diss anyone that wants to leave the pattern. To
each his/her own I say.

Come fly with us, no waiting time to join just pay us £130 for a years
membership, £2 /min aerotow and 20p /min hire, how cheap do you want it to
be.

Wow! That is pretty cheap...much cheaper than I had been lead to believe
about UK clubs. Then again with the current exchange rate it may be a bit
more than at first glance! ;-)

Casey Lenox
KC
Phoenix

"Kilo Charlie" wrote in message
news:2V4sd.19808$KO5.17949@fed1read02...

Sorry but the origional post said that the lack of cheap gliders was
responsible for the decline in gliding. Not so, in the UK the bad flying
weather over the past three years has put paid to more of our members
than
anything else.

Mostly my comment was meant for the usual/typical "anti-racing" post
another
person made. It seems like there needs to be little provocation for some
folks feeling the need to diss anyone that wants to leave the pattern. To
each his/her own I say.

Come fly with us, no waiting time to join just pay us £130 for a years
membership, £2 /min aerotow and 20p /min hire, how cheap do you want it
to
be.

Wow! That is pretty cheap...much cheaper than I had been lead to believe
about UK clubs. Then again with the current exchange rate it may be a bit
more than at first glance! ;-)

Casey Lenox
KC
Phoenix




Dont get me wrong not all clubs are as inexpensive as ours, some do charge
an arm and a leg, but to be fair the also provide a lot more bang for your
buck.

Peter

"Kilo Charlie" wrote in message news:yB2sd.19804$KO5.10476@fed1read02...
Interesting argument. Also interesting responses some of which have nothing
to do with your original post. Must just be the grumpy winter lurkers.

I agree with you. Soaring has to be "cool" again in order to have it
survive. I'm not sure that reducing the costs somewhat wouldn't help but
nevertheless that alone will not save it.

It is an instant gratification world out there. Why should a kid spend
countless hours learning how to do something and paying the dues by watching
others do it in front of them when they can get out the X-box or Gameboy and
go at it with minimal instruction, cost or delay?

Soaring is not much of a spectator sport but one small part of the
visibility has been taken away in the name of safety (aka liability) in the
US by a push to totally abolish low finishes. It is clear with the sold out
status of the UK Smokin Vids and the fact that the UK Junior Soaring Team
has so much fun with these finishes that it is interesting to young pilots
and spectators. I'm not advocating a "Redbull" type of approach to it but
the safety/liability issue has grown out of control in the US. For some
reason soaring has attracted more than its share of curmudgeons. Sports
like hang gliding with their speed courses for example, have taken the step
to make themselves more visible to the folks on the ground.

Casey Lenox
KC
Phoenix

Mr. Lenox nailed one of the unfortunate aspects of modern American
life: The proliferation of trial lawyers and frivolous lawsuits.
It's a shame that personal liability now factors into every aspect of
our lives, including soaring. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for
sensible and appropriate safety precautions, just against the "tax" on
most goods, services, and leisure activity due to liability lawsuits.
As to Soaring attracting curmudgeons, my guess is that probably those
very same curmudgeons used to be the younger low-finish pilots. They
just got older and more seasoned.
Respectfully,

"tango4" wrote in message
...
The 'which glider should we make cheaply' , 'glider classes' and some of
the traditional 'winter threads' seem to be based on the premise that if
we
could build a 40:1 sailplane for some nominal amount then the steady
decline
in worldwide sailplane pilot numbers can be stemmed.

I think it might well lower the churn rate. Unlike the PW5, I think many
clubs would want one.

I am yet to be convinced that aircraft cost is the major threshold to
entry
into the sport of soaring. I remain firmly convinced that even if we came
up
with a near zero cost aircraft we would do little more than temporarily
halt
the decline.

I don't think so either. It's the effort involved. IIRC the economic input
to Maine(?) from snow mobiling activities is $800M/year. A couple of family
snow mobiles on a trailer give nearly instant thrills (and the possibility
of mayhem) without the effort of learning and licensing. In the summer,
substitute jet skis.

In the UK annual membership of a golf club costs about the same as joining
a
gliding club and flying club ships for the same period.

I think golfing here runs more than soaring, especially at the local country
clubs. They pay a lot for water.

Ditto for a dinghy sailing club - based on joining a club and renting
dingies.

Memberships on the few lakes we have locally are easily more than I spend on
soaring all year. But this is a desert and lakes are rare. Can't land a
float plane on water in Colorado either.

Our club runs a 'scholarship' incentive for a number of student pilots
each
year, basically they fly for free, their bills being carried by the rest
of
the membership. We don't have hundreds of applicants for the scholarships,
just sufficient.

Soaring scholarships. Interesting topic. I know of one glider club that
gave soaring scholarships, it generated several members from the local
school and parents, created animosity, but was, in the end, rather
unsuccessful in achieving the desired goals. It was also the organizational
effort of a single member, with funds from several members. That member was
taken out of soaring by his SO, and the program stagnated. Another club has
a performance based program. Apply, get accepted, work for credits, perform
or get the boot. By perform, get license, get commercial, give rides, get
instructor rating, instruct, be the future. I think this may be the better
way forward, a mentored, value-added approach.

Most operations have a continuous stream of intro riders, the conversion
rate to sailplane pilots is astonishingly low though, in the order of a
few
percent.

It's been my experience in two countries that people who take rides also are
likely to have taken a balloon flight, perhaps a dual parachute jump, and a
spin in on a performance race car track. They may have even take a glider
flight 20 years ago, but they are not prospects. Our 3-flight mini-course
acts as sort of a pre-screening process. Those who are really interested
try these. Unlike a power sampler, where a given result is repeatable, you
might need those three flights to set the hook. A single flight is
generally a bit of a blur. Our chief instructor thinks we should just give
the three lessons, but I think one flight should really be an extended
soaring opportunity. That's what brings them back. I'm the only exception
I know for sure. I took a one flight sampler 30 years ago, but the pilot
kept us up for 55mins in very marginal conditions. Had she other customers
waiting, we'd have been back sooner. Had it been a sled ride, I might never
have returned, however I'd already read of Striedeck's flight in NG and
Wolter's Once Upon a Thermal, so I was already a seeker. When I finally got
around to seeking training, I was attracted by a simple black on pink A4
poster in the RAF Mildenhall post office that stated simply, "If you can
drive a car, we reckon you can fly a glider", with a graphic of the SHK I
later flew.

Todays youth have more disposable income than most of us could ever have
dreamed of at their age and in the future they are likely to have more
leisure time and even more money. Flying has to become something that
youngsters 'want to do' it has to become cool. Rather than sticking with
the
old way of doing things perhaps we should fire every club committee member
on the planet over 30 and let the youngsters with backwards baseball caps,
wrap around shades and baggy pants drag soaring into the 21st century. Us
old farts are not doing too good a job of stewardship if you ask me.

Flying has also been de-mystified in the jet era, as many of these same
youth have flown internationally. Many tune into the movies and never even
look out of the window. However, yes, clubs can be run be, and are, run by
their junior members.

We need a new approach.

Old fart greybeard, with glider on display, jumps out in front of a group of
likely looking college undergrad snowboarders, points, and states
emphatically, "Soaring will change your life". At least one of that group,
after going from ab-initio to switched on glider instructor, has now
completed BPT for the USN and is headed for next school and carrier duty.
He has never forgotten that day, and soaring has changed his life.

Frank Whiteley