15 Hour Wonders

On Tuesday, December 10, 2019 at 9:31:15 AM UTC-5, wrote:
I believe it was George Benard Shaw who said "He who can, does. He who cannot, teaches," in "Maxims for Revolutionists, Man and Superman," 1903. A more recent addition to this phase is "he who cannot teach, teaches teachers."

While I don't completely agree with this it has been my experience that there are those who are cut out to teach and others who clearly are not. I had the good fortune to always find myself in the hands of those with tens of thousands of hours both flying and teaching. My private and commercial were at the hands of a WW2 P51 pilot who instructed in the T6 for the Army Air Corps and later the USAF as a contact instructor and another who had flown the Ford TriMotor for an airline. My commercial glider add on was from a guy with thousands of glider flights, grey hair, an amazing level of skill and the proper personality and temperment to be an instructor. I have since added a private/rotorcraft certificate with a far younger instructor, relatively low time and about 1/3rd my age, such is the status quo at whirlybird schools. I was able to see the stark difference in communications and teaching technique.

My concern is not with the amount of time an instructor has but with his or her "ability to teach," to impart information and to know when the student has adequately achieved that level of skill. One can have amazing skills in the glider, skills that many top level Senior and National Champion racing competitors might not have and still not be able to judge when a student is ready to solo, allowing ones ego to get in the way of safety. I believe I have experienced this first hand as a tow pilot. I would strongly advise that any commercial or club operation closely supervise new CFIGs and before they solo a student to have the chief instructor ride with that student. The helicopter flight school with which I am now involved does this and it makes sense. While a new instructor may be up to date on rules and regulations and fresh from a check ride, there is NO substitute for experience.

Walt Connelly

Well put Walt, you hit the nail on the head. I like you have been around this game for quiet a few years, have seen many accidents and have watched several new instructors tell students the opposite of what they should know. There is no substitute for experience, I remember the instructor that endorsed me for my checkride back in the 70's. A very good instructor and qualified to say the least, his obit noted that he had 60 thousand hours of flight time. When Bill Harris wasn't flying for Delta he was at the glider club in Miami teaching. When Mary Gaffaney was called to do the checkride there was never a question about the students ability. The common factor there was experience, plain and simple and never any doubt when Mary was called to examine.
Our club has very good experienced instructors, and my towplanes are safe as you have observed. Our club double checks with two instructors prior to taking a student to the checkride phase. Just last weekend one of our instructors asked me to get another instructor to confirm the students ability prior to the checkride. That instructor happened to be CFI in rotor and aircraft along with CFIG and when he is not flying a G5, or his helicopter, or Staggerwing he is teaching in gliders for volunteer work at the club. The big attribute is experience and there is no substitute for it.

On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 6:22:28 PM UTC-6, Bob Youngblood wrote:
The FAA has made it possible for glider plots with very limited time to acquire a CFIG rating with only 15 hours of total glider time. This is truly an accident waiting to happen, what could a glider pilot actually know with such limited time? What do you think?

"There's no substitute for experience." Well, there's more to it than that isn't there? While it is popular to cringe at the idea of a pilot with less time in the seat to move through ratings and endorsements quickly it's the old salts I've seen make the worst mistakes. As a former "wunderkind" I watched the Experts do all of the following:
1.) Spin a glider onto it's wing tip from 10 feet with a passenger after an extraordinarily poor traffic pattern with multiple better scenarios available.
2.) Stall a 2-33 on short final while trying to show another CFIG how short they could land into a headwind so they wouldn't have to walk so far after landing.
3.) Pull up to clear power lines after letting a student get too low and fly too wide of a pattern. (with better out landing options)
4.) Strike props.
5.) Wrap tow ropes around wings demonstrating slack rope recovery.
6.) Santa Clause flight reviews for buddies who shouldn't be flying.
7.) No endorsement solos.
8.) Check ride sign offs without proper endorsements.
9.) A general attitude of having seen everything and knowing everything. But you'll never see one of them at a seminar or with a book in their hand. And you sure as hell won't see them outside of the traffic pattern let alone on a cross country flight.

Geez I could come up with examples all day... It takes effort to be a good CFI, while the low time instructor may not have the time in the seat they can usually make up for it with good margins and dedication. They won't be perfect but they'll do better than the guy who's in it for a free tow.
I'll agree that there is a lack of quality in the instruction available. However, if you look a bit past the hourly requirement you'll see there isn't much to earning any of the glider certificates in the U.S. The PTS/ACS at every certificate level is designed to evaluate a person's ability to fly a 2-33 in the local area and traffic pattern. Examiners seem to gloss over the sections about soaring. I understand in Europe CFIG applicants have much higher standards then the US. Maybe if we improved our product our population wouldn't be in decline?

Bob,

My point is that time is not the Be All and End All, other skills which one brings to the table are important. Intelligence, desire, previous teaching experience and an in check ego can make the 15 hour pilot the perfect candidate. The disparity in flying ability from one person to another is ginormous, as a tow pilot you know this well as do I. Pull a guy who has flown in the military for 20 years and/or the airlines and then pull a low time private pilot. Yes there are some outstanding PPLs but in general the difference is palpable.

Someone like Paul with an ATP, 5 Type Ratings, Comm-ASEL, Comm-Rotorcraft, CFI-A and CFI-R, 2000 hours instructing and 21,000 hours of flying brings much to the table. You can't buy that, it comes with time and experience. Those of us without that level of experience would do well to pay attention when they speak. That is NOT to say that someone with 15 hours PIC in a glider and wet ink on a CFIG cant be a good instructor and someone has to be their first student. However as Tango Whiskey noted in Germany and Switzerland a new CFIG is supervised for a period of time by an experienced instructor, a requirement that might need to be adopted here in the land of the free and the home of the brave.

I was recruited to teach Nuclear Medicine to student technologists at a Community College. I met all but one of the minimum requirements and could have picked that up easily but I'm not the type. I've seen lots of teachers and instructors who were not the type. Like Dirty Harry said, "A man's got to know his limitations."

Walt Connelly
Former tow pilot
Now happy helicopter pilot.

On Tuesday, December 10, 2019 at 4:18:58 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Bob,

My point is that time is not the Be All and End All, other skills which one brings to the table are important. Intelligence, desire, previous teaching experience and an in check ego can make the 15 hour pilot the perfect candidate. The disparity in flying ability from one person to another is ginormous, as a tow pilot you know this well as do I. Pull a guy who has flown in the military for 20 years and/or the airlines and then pull a low time private pilot. Yes there are some outstanding PPLs but in general the difference is palpable.

Someone like Paul with an ATP, 5 Type Ratings, Comm-ASEL, Comm-Rotorcraft, CFI-A and CFI-R, 2000 hours instructing and 21,000 hours of flying brings much to the table. You can't buy that, it comes with time and experience. Those of us without that level of experience would do well to pay attention when they speak. That is NOT to say that someone with 15 hours PIC in a glider and wet ink on a CFIG cant be a good instructor and someone has to be their first student. However as Tango Whiskey noted in Germany and Switzerland a new CFIG is supervised for a period of time by an experienced instructor, a requirement that might need to be adopted here in the land of the free and the home of the brave.

I was recruited to teach Nuclear Medicine to student technologists at a Community College. I met all but one of the minimum requirements and could have picked that up easily but I'm not the type. I've seen lots of teachers and instructors who were not the type. Like Dirty Harry said, "A man's got to know his limitations."

Walt Connelly
Former tow pilot
Now happy helicopter pilot.

Thanks Walt, this thread was not intended to make Paul an example. We, our club could give a rats ass. The thread was about the minimum requirements and how people perceived that requirement. Having an ATP, CFIH, and all the other acronyms are meaningless when it comes to gliders IMHO. Most of the ATP types have to learn what the rudders are all about.
There is a big difference between teaching glider flight and teaching soaring.

Bob
I sure agree on the ATP does not = soaring skills. There is dang near no crossover in knowledge from conmercial power flight (specially jet/complex) to soaring. In fact much of what is standard practice in that type of flying becomes down tight dangerous in gliders. What counts is stick n rudder skills, low level wx analysis, short field landing ability and other skills completely lacking in commercial aviation. Give me a guy with a couple hundred hours of back country low level flying over the ATP jet jockee with a thousand hours anytime.

NUTS!

On Tuesday, December 10, 2019 at 5:57:45 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Bob
I sure agree on the ATP does not = soaring skills. There is dang near no crossover in knowledge from conmercial power flight (specially jet/complex) to soaring. In fact much of what is standard practice in that type of flying becomes down tight dangerous in gliders. What counts is stick n rudder skills, low level wx analysis, short field landing ability and other skills completely lacking in commercial aviation. Give me a guy with a couple hundred hours of back country low level flying over the ATP jet jockee with a thousand hours anytime.

uneekc, you are completely correct, recently I had a guy come to the field and ask if he could tow, I raised my eyebrows and said how much time do you have? His reply was 20 thousand hours, my next question was do you have tailwheel time, answer, NO!, I am an ATP.
You mentioned short field landings, I promise you that these 15 hour wonders have no idea as to how you make an off field landing. They have no idea as to how to teach it. What about thermal entry and departure. Can they teach reading clouds, understanding of energy conversion in flight. The list goes on and on. Bob

FAA doesn't care about soaring, and that's fine by me. If you want to fly gliders, don't kill the towpilot and spot your landings. If you want to teach flying gliders that's about the extent of it as well as far as they're concerned. In Germany you need to take months of ground school to fly gliders. Careful complaining that gummint hain't big enuf. Our rules have been in place since before 1975 and I think they're fine.
Hawaii accident pilot was not an instructor nor acting as such. Fake news.

Well, there will always be a minimum threshold for everything. The FAA gets to make the decision and the industry must abide by it. Getting the FAA to make changes is like tying to herd cats. I learned what needed to be learned to pass the check ride without ever really "soaring." Soaring generally comes when one has a certificate and goes off in a two seater with an experienced "soaring" pilot.

Walt Connelly

On Wednesday, December 11, 2019 at 8:28:43 AM UTC-5, wrote:
Well, there will always be a minimum threshold for everything. The FAA gets to make the decision and the industry must abide by it. Getting the FAA to make changes is like tying to herd cats. I learned what needed to be learned to pass the check ride without ever really "soaring." Soaring generally comes when one has a certificate and goes off in a two seater with an experienced "soaring" pilot.

Walt Connelly

Fortunately, those are just minimums. I teach soaring, and I start teaching soaring pre-solo.

Evan Ludeman / T8