Total electrical failure - (hypothetical)

"paul kgyy" wrote in message
ups.com...
I was doing some practice IFR at home last night with my simulator, and
set up for random failures. First thing that happened was complete
electrical shut down - no radios, no VOR, no Xponder, and it suddenly
occurred to me that I'd never thought through what I would do. I do
carry backup comm and gps but what if those batteries were also dead,
and I'm in IMC?

This comes very close to the category of a non-critical emergency, defined
as an emergency where, no matter what you do, you are going to die. It is
one of the reasons that single engine light aircraft are unsuitable for long
periods of flight in IMC. Another, of course, is what do you do if your
engine quits? I think that it depends somewhat, too, on where you are and
what you are doing when everything goes dark. Suppose you were on an ILS,
500 feet above DH and in IMC, and you lose your electrical system, what do
you do? You just might be better off trying to continue the approach holding
your heading and rate of descent as closely as possible. You have to have an
out, or you don't do it. It is that simple.

I would hate to have to rely on a handheld GPS in such an emergency, though
of course it would be welcome as better than nothing. Not having that, dead
reckoning is a possibility and it is a skill that should be practiced. A
handheld radio is probably going to be almost useless, though some of them
have VOR.

I also have considered the practicality of heading for the shore, descending
to where I could see the ocean, then flying back in below the scud. The
trouble with this is that visibility usually gets worse over the ocean and
near the shoreline. There are still obstructions and terrain to be dealt
with, and now you have lost any practical ability to navigate with dead
reckoning. You are also going to use up a lot of fuel and you are burning
daylight (if it is night, well, you are welcome to try anything you want,
but your chances of surviving a self-inflicted gunshot wound to the head are
probably better).

If you know that you can climb out of the clouds, then that is probably a
good option, but this presupposes either more luck than you deserve or you
planned on this being your out in the first place (do you really trust the
area forecast that much, and where are those tops, anyway?). You are still
left with the problem of finding a place to descend through the clouds
safely and land without running out of fuel, daylight, and ideas. Descending
out of the clouds might work, provided you don't hit anything on the way or
end up in a box canyon somewhere.

Newer single engine aircraft with glass cockpits have backup instruments and
some sort of backup electrical system, even if it is only certified for 30
minutes. They also have terrain displays so that you have at least a small
chance of descending out of the clouds without killing yourself. If equipped
for it, I would consider a total loss of the electrical system a legitimate
reason for deploying an emergency parachute such as CAPS. Beyond that, I
would say that you are taking a serious risk if you insist on flying a
single engine piston airplane in actual IMC beyond, say, punching through a
thin layer.

C J Campbell wrote:
This comes very close to the category of a non-critical emergency,
defined
as an emergency where, no matter what you do, you are going to die.

That's a hell of a defeatist attitude, and demonstrably wrong since
people HAVE survived exactly this situation.

I would hate to have to rely on a handheld GPS in such an emergency,
though
of course it would be welcome as better than nothing.

Actually, it is DRAMATICALLY better than nothing. It is more accurate,
more precise, and more reliable than any NDB and most VOR's. It can
effectively be used to shoot an overlay of any published NDB, VOR, or
VOR-DME approach to published minima. Being self-contained with its
own batteries, it is independent of the failure modes of the aircraft
(including the electrical bus) and thus is superior as a navigation
backup to anything installed in any certified single or light twin.

The ability to shoot an overlay using a handheld GPS should be part of
the repertoire of any instrument pilot. If you don't know how, ask
your instructor to show you. If he can't, he's not much of an
instructor.

Newer single engine aircraft with glass cockpits have backup
instruments and
some sort of backup electrical system, even if it is only certified
for 30
minutes.

That's because they lack vacuum, and thus in such aircraft electrical
failure also means gyro failure. I find that pretty scary. Vacuum may
suck, but at least it's a totally independent system. There are ways
of making electric backup systems truly independent and failsafe, but
none are available for certified single engine airplanes.

They also have terrain displays so that you have at least a small
chance of descending out of the clouds without killing yourself.

Terrain displays are available on the newer high-end handheld GPS
units.

Beyond that, I
would say that you are taking a serious risk if you insist on flying
a
single engine piston airplane in actual IMC beyond, say, punching
through a
thin layer.

That must be why self-flown business flights, which do this routinely,
are so much more dangerous than personal flights, which rarely do this.
Oh, wait...

Michael

"Michael" wrote in message
oups.com...
C J Campbell wrote:
This comes very close to the category of a non-critical emergency,
defined
as an emergency where, no matter what you do, you are going to die.

That's a hell of a defeatist attitude, and demonstrably wrong since
people HAVE survived exactly this situation.


Yes, and people have survived jumping out of the plane without a parachute
at 20,000 feet, too. But the odds are against it. Personally, I think the
way you deal with an electrical failure in IMC with no GPS or handheld radio
is that you avoid putting yourself in a situation where that can happen.

I would hate to have to rely on a handheld GPS in such an emergency,
though
of course it would be welcome as better than nothing.

Actually, it is DRAMATICALLY better than nothing. It is more accurate,
more precise, and more reliable than any NDB and most VOR's.

NDB, yes. VOR, highly questionable.


The ability to shoot an overlay using a handheld GPS should be part of
the repertoire of any instrument pilot. If you don't know how, ask
your instructor to show you.

I would agree with that.


Newer single engine aircraft with glass cockpits have backup
instruments and
some sort of backup electrical system, even if it is only certified
for 30
minutes.

That's because they lack vacuum

Nonsense. Most of them have backup vacuum instruments and even have dual
vacuum pumps, which older airplanes lack.


They also have terrain displays so that you have at least a small
chance of descending out of the clouds without killing yourself.

Terrain displays are available on the newer high-end handheld GPS
units.

True, mine has that.


Beyond that, I
would say that you are taking a serious risk if you insist on flying
a
single engine piston airplane in actual IMC beyond, say, punching
through a
thin layer.

That must be why self-flown business flights, which do this routinely,
are so much more dangerous than personal flights, which rarely do this.
Oh, wait...

In fact, self-flown business flights do not do this routinely, especially in
single engine piston aircraft. They are less dangerous than personal flights
because the pilots are better trained, the planes are better equipped, and
they are not going to kill themselves with low level VFR maneuvers, which is
the biggest killer of GA pilots.

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 11:52:31 -0800, "C J Campbell"
wrote:

I would hate to have to rely on a handheld GPS in such an emergency,
though
of course it would be welcome as better than nothing.

Actually, it is DRAMATICALLY better than nothing. It is more accurate,
more precise, and more reliable than any NDB and most VOR's.

NDB, yes. VOR, highly questionable.

The fact that a GPS is handheld has little to do with its accuracy.

With WAAS enabled, most handhelds are good to 10meters, and all GPS
are better than 100m accurate. Throw in the pseudo-HSI displays, and
I guarantee I can fly a more accurate emergency approach (assuming the
AI is still working ok) with the handheld GPS than I can with an NDB,
VOR, or LOC alone.

Where the handheld lacks is reliability, influenced by factors like:
no RAIM, lack of permanent antenna installations. Having said that,
I have flown with a Garmin 295 for 3 or 4 years now, and it is
accurate and reliable.

Would I launch into IMC with known electrical problems - of course
not. However, the odds having having a total electrical failure +
G295 failure + Iow IMC are small enough that I believe the risk to
flight caused by navigation/electrical failure is much lower than
mechanical failure or pilot error.

-Nathan

"Nathan Young" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 11:52:31 -0800, "C J Campbell"
wrote:

I would hate to have to rely on a handheld GPS in such an emergency,
though
of course it would be welcome as better than nothing.

Actually, it is DRAMATICALLY better than nothing. It is more accurate,
more precise, and more reliable than any NDB and most VOR's.

NDB, yes. VOR, highly questionable.

The fact that a GPS is handheld has little to do with its accuracy.


Where the handheld lacks is reliability

Exactly. Moreover, some handhelds are much more reliable than others.


Would I launch into IMC with known electrical problems - of course
not.

Good for you. I suspect some others here would.

I'd sure like to know who survived a free fall from 20,000 feet without a
parachute.
Really, I'm curious.

MJC

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...

Yes, and people have survived jumping out of the plane without a parachute
at 20,000 feet, too. But the odds are against it. Personally, I think the
way you deal with an electrical failure in IMC with no GPS or handheld
radio
is that you avoid putting yourself in a situation where that can happen.

Quite a few he http://www.greenharbor.com/fffolder/wreckage.html

The one I recalled without googling for it was the flight attendant.
Doesn't she hold a Guinness world record?

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:27:59 -0600, "MJC" wrote:

I'd sure like to know who survived a free fall from 20,000 feet without a
parachute.
Really, I'm curious.

MJC

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...

Yes, and people have survived jumping out of the plane without a parachute
at 20,000 feet, too. But the odds are against it. Personally, I think the
way you deal with an electrical failure in IMC with no GPS or handheld
radio
is that you avoid putting yourself in a situation where that can happen.

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...

"Michael" wrote in message
oups.com...
C J Campbell wrote:
This comes very close to the category of a non-critical emergency,
defined
as an emergency where, no matter what you do, you are going to die.

That's a hell of a defeatist attitude, and demonstrably wrong since
people HAVE survived exactly this situation.


Yes, and people have survived jumping out of the plane without a parachute
at 20,000 feet, too. But the odds are against it. Personally, I think the
way you deal with an electrical failure in IMC with no GPS or handheld
radio
is that you avoid putting yourself in a situation where that can happen.

IOW, "Don't fly in IMC"? I can see having a handheld GPS for redundancy, but
what is the usable range of a handheld radio, 5 miles?


In fact, self-flown business flights do not do this routinely, especially
in
single engine piston aircraft. They are less dangerous than personal
flights
because the pilots are better trained, the planes are better equipped, and
they are not going to kill themselves with low level VFR maneuvers, which
is
the biggest killer of GA pilots.

I think you're conflating "business flights" with "corporate aviation"
which is not a precise analogy.


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

"Matt Barrow" wrote in message
...

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...

"Michael" wrote in message
oups.com...
C J Campbell wrote:
This comes very close to the category of a non-critical emergency,
defined
as an emergency where, no matter what you do, you are going to die.

That's a hell of a defeatist attitude, and demonstrably wrong since
people HAVE survived exactly this situation.


Yes, and people have survived jumping out of the plane without a
parachute
at 20,000 feet, too. But the odds are against it. Personally, I think
the
way you deal with an electrical failure in IMC with no GPS or handheld
radio
is that you avoid putting yourself in a situation where that can happen.

IOW, "Don't fly in IMC"? I can see having a handheld GPS for redundancy,
but
what is the usable range of a handheld radio, 5 miles?


I would not go so far as to say that. I am saying do not fly in solid IMC.
Punching through a layer, popping in and out of clouds, etc., is reasonable.


In fact, self-flown business flights do not do this routinely,
especially
in
single engine piston aircraft. They are less dangerous than personal
flights
because the pilots are better trained, the planes are better equipped,
and
they are not going to kill themselves with low level VFR maneuvers,
which
is
the biggest killer of GA pilots.

I think you're conflating "business flights" with "corporate aviation"
which is not a precise analogy.

Or at least Michael is.



--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

Actually, it is DRAMATICALLY better than nothing. It is more
accurate,
more precise, and more reliable than any NDB and most VOR's.
NDB, yes. VOR, highly questionable.

You're welcome to call it highly questionable, but realize that most
aviation handhelds do offer self-monitoring that is significantly more
robust and sophisticated than VOR (which merely shows the presence of a
signal). VOR signals do some fascinating things when reflections are
an issue.

That's because they lack vacuum
Nonsense. Most of them have backup vacuum instruments and even have
dual
vacuum pumps, which older airplanes lack.

What piston single has backup vacuum and backup electric? I know the
Cirrus line has quite a bit of electrical redundancy, but it must,
being an all-electric airplane. I'm genuinely curious here - I don't
often fly anything built in this century.

In fact, self-flown business flights do not do this routinely,
especially in
single engine piston aircraft.

You know, when I fly IFR in my twin, there sure seem to be a lot of
Bonanzas and Centurions up there with me. Nobody I know cancels a
business trip in a Centurion or Bonanza because he will need to fly the
enroute portion in IMC, and I know quite a few people who use that kind
of airplane for business. That goes out the window if ice and/or
embedded T-storms are a factor, but there's really not much difference
between going on top vs through warm stratus. It's where the bases
are, and what is under them, that matters - especially in a single
engine airplane.

The real issues of IFR flight are widespread low IMC (especially in a
single - in a twin you can shoot an approach on one engine so it's not
so bad), T-storms, and ice. Differentiating between a flight where you
climb into the soup at 1200 ft, climb out at 2500, and fly the enroute
portion on top at 8000 vs one where you climb in at 1200 and fly in
solid soup at 8000 until you break out on the approach is, well,
amateur hour.

Being on top rather than in the soup doesn't actually help you in terms
of navigation, and nobody I know flies IMC in a plane where a single
point failure will take out all the gyros.

Michael