Being asked to "verify direct XXX"

On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 15:07:35 GMT, Paul Folbrecht
wrote:

Oh, I agree entirely. I should have mentioned that was only once, and I
also might have mentioned that we had a total vacuum failure within 5
minutes of that and the DG may already have been spinning down (we were
in VMC with me wearing foggles).

I got quite good at holding heading very accurately during my training.
I just have to learn to not let distractions interfere with that,
even momentarily.

As you pointed out earlier. Solo IFR in IMC without an AP is one of
the most demanding tasks in flying. It helps to have a non-pilot
friend in the right seat (to hand you maps or lunch!).

Man, even a single-axis AP would be nice!

I have a wing-leveler in my Cherokee 180. Although wing levelers
aren't the greatest, they do keep the plane upright and generally
pointed in the same direction. I am glad to have it, but of course
would like a 2-axis coupled AP.

-Nathan

One thing I've quickly picked up on is that ATC pretty much expects
everybody to be able to navigate direct.

expects is the keyword. It isn't required and often I get
told "fly heading XXX, when able direct YYYY."

If you tell them you've got a VFR GPS (in your remarks), they'll happily
give you direct clearances

they'll happily give you direct JFK to SFO. It's up to you to
do it. VFR GPS means nothing to them since you are still a /A or /U.

(I don't
keep the DB current and there's certainly no reason at all they should
expect that I do).

no one except the PIC checks to make sure a plane's panel-mounted
database is current. ATC sure doesn't.

What you are saying is the equivalent of a /G airplane with out
of date databases. You are NOT legal to fly IFR with out of
date databases (there are exceptions but in general, the answer
is no).

Not to be Mr. Police Officer or mean about it.....you said you are
newly minted IFR pilot when did you
take your written test? Did you study the Gleim. there are only
about 10 questions on GPS including a couple on the exact
thing you are asking about. I took mine not too long ago (my
checkride is coming up)


I've been
asked to "verify direct XXX" when I'm off course by a quite small amount
- no more than 10 degrees.

Course probably doesn't matter (a guess). If you want to fly S-turns
down a victor airway, they'll probably think you're drunk but
as long as you stay with the airway you are probably legal. If
you are really S-turning it, they might say something.

The other reason they might ask is if one controller says "cleared
direct XXX, contact Socal on 134.65." When you contact
the next controller you should say "Airbus 12345, 2000, direct XXX."
Just like if they give you a heading and are handed off, you should
tell them your newly assigned heading. Don't assume anything. A
friend of a friend was given a heading, passed to another controller,
10 minutes later he flew into a mountain. Controller probably was
dazing off as it was late at night and didn't realize the pilot
was on a heading and not on an airway with a MEA.

I've vowed to put a stop to this, and I have realized that I should
probably pay even closer attention to my heading.

just trim out the plane perfectly including rudder trim so your
TC is perfectly level. It's just like your elevator trim. Get
them perfect and the plane will stay straight.


My two-part question is 1) Should I be concerned at all by being asked
such a question by ATC?

concerned, no. But of course you'll wonder. Just like when I
flew into LAS in an Archer. I made a nice radio call "Cherokee XXXXX,
6000, information bravo." They came back and asked if I had information
bravo. This happened on 2 controllers no less. I figure they're used
to dealing with 'real' airplanes that I can only dream of flying.

And 2) Just _what_ is the IFR "heading
tolerance", anyway??

they probably couldn't care less about headings as long as you are where
you are. They might ask you so they know the winds aloft so when they
provide RV the airplane goes where they intend to go.

Gerald Sylvester

"G. Sylvester" wrote in message
m...

they'll happily give you direct JFK to SFO. It's up to you to
do it.

Direct to SFO from JFK? Unlikely.

keep the DB current and there's certainly no reason at all they should
expect that I do).


no one except the PIC checks to make sure a plane's panel-mounted
database is current. ATC sure doesn't.

No kidding. My point was that, being that it's a _VFR_ GPS and that I
did _not_ file /G, I am under no regulatory requirement at all to keep
it current.


What you are saying is the equivalent of a /G airplane with out
of date databases. You are NOT legal to fly IFR with out of
date databases (there are exceptions but in general, the answer
is no).

Yes, there are exceptions for enroute ops, but that's another matter.

Not to be Mr. Police Officer or mean about it.....you said you are
newly minted IFR pilot when did you
take your written test? Did you study the Gleim. there are only
about 10 questions on GPS including a couple on the exact
thing you are asking about. I took mine not too long ago (my
checkride is coming up)

I took it it November and got a 98%. I am aware of the regs governing
IFR GPS use. No offense, but you missed my point.

What you are saying is the equivalent of a /G airplane with out
of date databases. You are NOT legal to fly IFR with out of
date databases (there are exceptions but in general, the answer
is no).

Not true. It depends on the individual GPS. RTFM.

(there are exceptions but in general, the answer is no).
Not true. It depends on the individual GPS. RTFM.

There are exceptions.....it depends......


ummm, we're saying the same thing, aren't we?
Agreed, RTFM always applies hence the indefinite statements.

Gerald

G. Sylvester wrote:

(there are exceptions but in general, the answer is no). Not true. It
depends on the individual GPS. RTFM.


There are exceptions.....it depends......


ummm, we're saying the same thing, aren't we?

There is no FAR that says the database must be current. The law is
whatever the manufacturer says it is in the manual. It's just the
opposite of what you said, most of the time an expired database is OK.
Especially for terminal and enroute ops. Only for approaches is it
pretty standard that the databse be current.

direct XXX, contact Socal on 134.65." When you contact
the next controller you should say "Airbus 12345, 2000, direct XXX."
Just like if they give you a heading and are handed off, you should
tell them your newly assigned heading. Don't assume anything. A

I haven't been doing that. That right there could (and probably does)
explain 2 of the 3 cases I can recall of being asked this question.

The last one, the one where I know I was a bit off course, was the
aforementioned occurance where we lost vacuum just moments later..
though actually, honestly, I don't really think that was the culprit
(though I normally do fly by the DG and VOR head and not the GPS ground
track).

This was my first time left seat in this particular airplane as well,
and I was studying an approach plate (no excuse, I know).

And, as I noted, not on this or any other time did I detect annoyance
from the controller.. in fact she (Chicago center) was very polite and
chipper.

I'm sure (well, 99% sure) I have nothing to worry about.

just trim out the plane perfectly including rudder trim so your
TC is perfectly level. It's just like your elevator trim. Get
them perfect and the plane will stay straight.

Rudder trim? You mean the little tab on the back of the rudder? :-) I
fly a '79 C-152, and, no, it does not fly completely hands-off level.
Few of them do!

concerned, no. But of course you'll wonder. Just like when I
flew into LAS in an Archer. I made a nice radio call "Cherokee XXXXX,
6000, information bravo." They came back and asked if I had information
bravo. This happened on 2 controllers no less. I figure they're used
to dealing with 'real' airplanes that I can only dream of flying.

Another thing I've wondered about is how often the pilot is told when
they'll be filing paperwork. It seems the norm is the dreaded "call
this number on landing" but I know that they don't have to do that. If
a controller was really peeved at you, he might take perverse pleasure
in making sure you didn't know what was coming.

Before somebody replies, I know that controllers are not out to violate
pilots and are almost all good guys & gals.

And 2) Just _what_ is the IFR "heading tolerance", anyway??

I should have stated the question as "course-deviation tolerance".

Paul Folbrecht wrote:
direct XXX, contact Socal on 134.65." When you contact
the next controller you should say "Airbus 12345, 2000, direct XXX."
Just like if they give you a heading and are handed off, you should
tell them your newly assigned heading. Don't assume anything. A
I haven't been doing that. That right there could (and probably does)
explain 2 of the 3 cases I can recall of being asked this question.

from my very limited experience the first controller will
say "fly heading XXX and intercept V25..." Usually the next
controller all you have to say is "heading XXX" and can leave
off the intercept V25 as that will clue them in enough.

And, as I noted, not on this or any other time did I detect annoyance
from the controller.. in fact she (Chicago center) was very polite and
chipper.

it's amazing how you can really see personalities and/or moods over the
air.

Rudder trim? You mean the little tab on the back of the rudder? :-) I
fly a '79 C-152, and, no, it does not fly completely hands-off level.
Few of them do!

I didn't even know a C152 flies. ;-) j/k. The other way to do it
is just crack open a door. hehehe.

Another thing I've wondered about is how often the pilot is told when
they'll be filing paperwork.

I've heard that it takes number of things. 1, affect safety of flight.
2, not apologize and sound like you did everything right and they
are wrong. 3, they are in a bad mood. I'll tell you when it happens
to me although I don't exactly plan on it. ;-)

It seems the norm is the dreaded "call
this number on landing" but I know that they don't have to do that.

well the other day I heard a pilot ask the SQL Tower for the controllers
name. She got the initials. I guess it can work both ways.

Before somebody replies, I know that controllers are not out to violate
pilots and are almost all good guys & gals.

agreed. They've help my butt more times than they've given me a hard
time.

And 2) Just _what_ is the IFR "heading tolerance", anyway??
I should have stated the question as "course-deviation tolerance".

I've never heard of any but that doesn't mean much. I presume as
long as you are within the +/-4nm of the airway they don't care.
You violate their aircraft separation and then they might 'violate'
you though.

Maybe the best thing to do is don't mention the VFR GPS as it implies
that you are /G.

Gerald

ATC can't see your heading, just your ground track. They would have no way
of knowing that you are off-course by a "couple of degrees."

Bob Gardner

"Paul Folbrecht" wrote in message
...
I'm a new IFR pilot, having gotten my ticket end of January.

One thing I've quickly picked up on is that ATC pretty much expects
everybody to be able to navigate direct. If you tell them you've got a
VFR GPS (in your remarks), they'll happily give you direct clearances and
instructions while airborne. I've learned to deal with that (by really
learning how to use my GPS), though I really still wonder about the whole
thing and marvel at the fact that they'll expect me to navigate under IFR
with this thing without a current database (I don't keep the DB current
and there's certainly no reason at all they should expect that I do). (I
am planning to do somewhat regular DB updates from here on out, but it's
not going to be every month.)

Anyway, on to my question. A couple times now, when I've been navigating
direct, either to a fix or airport identifiable by VORs or one that isn't
(such as an uncontrolled field with no navaid), I've been asked to "verify
direct XXX" when I'm off course by a quite small amount - no more than 10
degrees. Or, perhaps, I've gotten off course a bit and have a larger
heading correction (20-25 degrees) in to get back on track, momentarily.
I've never had a controller sound annoyed, but it does concern me a bit
that they see fit to more or less ask "Are you sure you know where you're
going"??

I've vowed to put a stop to this, and I have realized that I should
probably pay even closer attention to my heading. I am meticulous about
holding alt but, obviously, heading is important too. Flying single-pilot
IFR with no autopilot, with turbulence, it can be a challenge in those
moments where the workload is high for a bit..

My two-part question is 1) Should I be concerned at all by being asked
such a question by ATC? And 2) Just _what_ is the IFR "heading
tolerance", anyway?? Meaning, what sort of heading deviance is large
enough that you can be violated for it? Does such a figure even exist? I
expected this to be something fairly simple to find in the regs and it was
not.

TIA.

~Paul Folbrecht
~PP-SEL-IA
~'79 C152
~MWC