Class B bust my fault or the controllers ?

Gary Drescher wrote:

wrote in message ...
An emergency is not limited to the
aircraft having a mechanical or similar such problem. Violating Class B
airspace has unknown ramifactions, such as perhaps approach control seeing
the
intrustion and declaring an emergency on your flight because of loss of
separation, etc., etc.

It's true that a controller *might*, for additional reasons, deem a Class B
incursion to be an emergency. But I doubt that a slight breach of Class B,
with good visibility and no conflicting traffic, would *by itself*
constitute an emergency. So I don't think 91.3b would necessarily come into
play.

Again, I don't dispute that you should avoid the incursion, even if you have
to violate 91.123b. I just wish the FARs weren't contradictory on that
point.

--Gary

I cited both 91 (a) and (b). If just (a) fits in your judgment, then that's
your judgment. You will have a far greater chance of avoiding the enforcement
hearing if you remain clear of the Class B.

wrote in message ...

If frequency conjestion creates a sustained inability to request either a
Class
B clearance to enter the imminent Class B airspace or a new instruction to
avoid
the Class B, you have an emergency brewing.


Well, that's certainly a stretch, but if you respond as I suggested it's not
a problem.

wrote:
whatever action you have to take to avoid the Class B should be
reasonable and prudent so as to not unnecessarily create an unsafe
condition for the local controller working your flight.

I can't imagine anything you could do to create an unsafe condition for the
local controller short of crashing into the tower.

Roy Smith wrote:

wrote:
whatever action you have to take to avoid the Class B should be
reasonable and prudent so as to not unnecessarily create an unsafe
condition for the local controller working your flight.

I can't imagine anything you could do to create an unsafe condition for the
local controller short of crashing into the tower.

I didn't mean him personally as to his physical well-being.

According to my SEA Class B chart, if you are at 800 feet and turn before
you get to I-405, you will not enter Class B. Something to check before
takeoff. The Boeing controller has no authority in the SEA Class B. You
should have spoken up before reaching 405.

Bob Gardner

"Antoñio" wrote in message
oups.com...
Today I flew into KBFI (Boeing field) which is class D and has
extentions that underlie the Class B that require close attention to
altitudes and headings so as to stay clear. Today the winds were
favoring 31L (and 31R) and I came in from the west on the Vashon
approach--the most common approach from the west.

I was on a left downwind for 31L and the tower told me I was number
three following an Arrow on about a 2 mile straight in final (Valley
approach?). I acknowledged the traffic, and was waiting for it to come
up on my 9 o'clock before turning base so as to allow enough spacing.

The controller suddenly told me that I was too far south and said
either that I had busted into surface B or was about to. (I never did
clearly hear which).
Unless one turns a fairly close in base here--within about a half mile
or less--you end up in class B surface.

My questions:

1.Assuming I busted B; who is reponsible if the controller asks me to
follow an aircraft that is too far out on a straight in? I mean, I can
reduce speed, s-turn, and the like but I can't turn base until the
aircraft on final is a safe distance away, right?

2.Is the controller supposed to arrange things so that I *can* turn
base and not be in conflict with other aircraft?

3.How would you resolve the problem if it were happening to you ?

Any thoughts would be appreciated...

Antonio

Bob Gardner wrote:

According to my SEA Class B chart, if you are at 800 feet and turn before
you get to I-405, you will not enter Class B. Something to check before
takeoff. The Boeing controller has no authority in the SEA Class B. You
should have spoken up before reaching 405.

The airspace there is so complex with not only the Class B but the Renton
Class D. If I were going to land at BFI as an out-of-towner, it would be IFR
or I wouldn't get near any of it. I don't think I would even accept a visual
approach to BFI.

"Antoñio" wrote in message
oups.com...
Today I flew into KBFI (Boeing field) which is class D and has
extentions that underlie the Class B that require close attention to
altitudes and headings so as to stay clear. Today the winds were
favoring 31L (and 31R) and I came in from the west on the Vashon
approach--the most common approach from the west.

I was on a left downwind for 31L and the tower told me I was number
three following an Arrow on about a 2 mile straight in final (Valley
approach?). I acknowledged the traffic, and was waiting for it to come
up on my 9 o'clock before turning base so as to allow enough spacing.

The controller suddenly told me that I was too far south and said
either that I had busted into surface B or was about to. (I never did
clearly hear which).
Unless one turns a fairly close in base here--within about a half mile
or less--you end up in class B surface.

My questions:

1.Assuming I busted B; who is reponsible if the controller asks me to
follow an aircraft that is too far out on a straight in? I mean, I can
reduce speed, s-turn, and the like but I can't turn base until the
aircraft on final is a safe distance away, right?

2.Is the controller supposed to arrange things so that I *can* turn
base and not be in conflict with other aircraft?

3.How would you resolve the problem if it were happening to you ?

Any thoughts would be appreciated...

Antonio


If you're VFR, as we are assuming you were, you are responsible for
following the tower controllers instructions up to the point that they cause
a potential for collision. ATC in class D is responsible for separating IFR
from IFR traffic only. If an instruction sends you towards another
aircraft, you'd deviate as necessary. That wasn't an emergency, it was
see-and-avoid. You'd notify ATC that you'd deviated, and why, and because
no metal hit and no loss of separation occurred, no harm, no foul. The
controller may be ****ed that the traffic flow is now messed up...oh well.

Now if you proceed into class B airspace, you're entering an area of
positive separation of everyone from everyone...that's why you need a
clearance. Bust class B without a clearance and you could very well cause a
loss of separation...bet your butt you'll get a call about that.

Here's the thing: the tower controller knows you're not cleared into class B
and is expecting you'll avoid it on your own. If the aircraft you're
following does something unexpectly (i.e. extending downwind too long) than
the controller expects you'll do whatever's necessary to 1) avoid hitting
other airplanes, 2) avoid busting class B. His instruction was provided to
sequence aircraft, not to keep from hitting each other.

If this thread was on rec.aviation.piloting, Jay Honeck would probably chime
in at this point mentioning how much class D airspace sucks. It's fine as
long as all pilots in the airspace understand the roles and responsibilities
of ATC and themselves. Then again, maybe Jay has a point.

Brad,

I just noticed that this thread has been cross posted to r.a.ifr. I
have been responding in r.a.piloting and not really reading the posts
here.

My final post on the matter ( I do hope ) is on r.a.piloting and goes
like this:

Rob,

I am not sure of exactly where to put this post so I will just stick it
here and repeat it elsewhere in hopes that everyone will read it.

Due to the gallant efforts of Peter, Bob, Steve, Gary, you and a few
others I must humbly eat crow. You guys have made me see the light.

I have come to the conclusions that:

1. I flew too wide a pattern without regard to VFR references but only
paying attention to the aircraft that I had to follow. Looking back, I
suspect that I did not actually enter class B but was very close to it.
The controller warned me of that fact and I turned sufficiently early
because of that warning to avoid penetrating B airspace. This is why I
never got the infamous, "Call the tower..." message.

2. Though I am quite capable of flying a tight pattern with 14 years of
mountain flying under my belt, I got a bit lazy. I possibly turned my
downwind too wide, I think, causing me to be headed for the closest
part of B airspace from the get-go. B airspace is about 3/4 mile or so
from the end of the runway if one is too wide as I understand it.

2.5 It is quite possible to fly safely in this area and avoiding B
airspace if one is aware of the VFR landmarks. Pete is correct... So is
the unnamed famous author that wrote me privately. ;-)

3. I became stubborn and positioned myself as if a lawyer defending a
position for a client and lost the big picture. It was fun though and
I learned alot! :-)

4. As has been pointed out, I sort of expected ATC to bail me out of my
lazy piloting by blaming them for not sequencing me properly. Had I
been on the ball I would have slowed or s-turned ( but no 360 ! ) and
turned a tighter pattern.

5. I may have insulted some here. I apologize for that. Especially to
Pete for my crack about seeing a psychologist. I hope you know that I
don't think you are crazy all the time. ;-)

6. Though I am still a bit hazy on the tiny details of the legal
responsibilities of ATC in this, I am sure that they acted
appropriately within the boundaries of what was traditionally expected.

In conclusion, ( I hope!) let me say that you all have made me see
things more clearly and have helped this pilot to be a little safer. I
thank you all.

Sincerly,

Antonio