medical question: childhood heart murmur

"Cub Driver" wrote in message
...
How could you possibly be required to report something you don't
remember?

Asked and answered.

Cub Driver opined

On Thu, 4 Aug 2005 09:38:54 -0700, "Peter Duniho"
wrote:

. You're only required to
report what you remember.

That's an interesting take on the regulations. Where'd you get that from?

How could you possibly be required to report something you don't
remember?

Dan, we are talking about a governmant bureaucracy here.

On the other hand, how do you prove that someone has forgotten something?

-ash
Cthulhu in 2005!
Why wait for nature?

wrote:

1. does the pilot divulge to FAA said childhood murmur?

I would not do so.

The first time your friend filled out the form, there were a bunch of questions
that he answered. Truthfully, as far as he knew. He signed a statement to the
effect that they were true as far as he knew. From this point on, the AME asks
about changes to existing conditions or new conditions that have come up. You
friend can truthfully report those. The fact that he's now been told of an old
condition that seems to have disappeared doesn't change any existing conditions
or change the fact that he told the truth as far as he knew at the time.

In addition, there is one case of which I've read in which a pilot had his
certificate suspended for "falsifying an entry" in his logbook. He was up for
examination for a new rating, the examiner told him that he couldn't record the
time detailed in the entry for some reason, so he changed the entry in the
presence of the examiner. It was stated at the hearing that he would not have
been violated if he had refused to change the entry.

This situation might or might not get handled similarly, but I think it is
indicative of the way the FAA thinks on these matters. Saying "whoops! I forgot
about this one" might get your friend prosecuted for perjury on the original form.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

Here's one response thanking several people who wrote comments.

This unnamed pilot, talked to the AOPA medical people (Jo Ann) this
morning, and they she recommended that there was no need to divulge
this condition. Specifically, she said that childhood murmurs are
common and most children grow out of them. If in two medical exams two
different AMEs never heard anything, then there is no reportable
murmur.

I dunno..... to be honest, though having my certificates revoked is a
highly unpleasant thought, what upsets me the most is the idea that in
an accident some day in the future the insurance company will go
looking for reasons not to pay, and find one... a non-relevant
technicality, but a reason nontheless.

Thanks again, people. I (I mean, my pilot friend, will try not to
worry about it now.

What would be cool would be if you could anonymously talk to someone in
Oklahoma, like the AOPA medical advice people, but more likely to know
what the FAA medical people are thinking right now.

-unnamedpilot

"George Patterson" wrote in message
news:B5sIe.42$zX3.24@trndny05...
wrote:
The first time your friend filled out the form, there were a bunch of
questions that he answered. Truthfully, as far as he knew. He signed a
statement to the effect that they were true as far as he knew. From this
point on, the AME asks about changes to existing conditions or new
conditions that have come up.

No, that's not the case. Each time you fill out the form, you're asked to
report 1) all health-professional visits within the last three years; and 2)
whether you have *ever in your life* had or been diagnosed with any of
several enumerated conditions. There's nothing that restricts the scope of
the questions to changes since the last exam.
(http://www.aopa.org/members/files/medical/8500-8.pdf)

--Gary

My guess is that the doctor confused him with his brother.
The pilot's vague memories are probably regarding his brother.

wrote in message
oups.com...

Okay, here's an odd situation.

30-something pilot, been flying a few years, have had a couple of class
III medical examinations; no problems.

On a recent visit home, pilot's family remind him that as infant he had
a heart murmur. There were checkups for a few years, but no
restrictions, meds, problems, etc of any sort.

Pilot vaguely remembers some of this on being reminded, but also knows
he's never mentioned it to an AME. (As far as he knows, there's no
murmur today; at least no doctor or AME has mentioned it during an exam
in the last 20 years.)

Pilot has a one year old medical good for two more years.

1. does the pilot divulge to FAA said childhood murmur?
2. if so, to whom? AME? Oklahoma City?
3. does he wait until next exam (couple of years) or do so now?
4. If going to divulge, should he go get fancy/expensive tests *first*
or let FAA or AME ask for said tests?

Some seriously Googling about murmurs shows the protocol for murmurs to
be that they are FAA disqualifying until shown to be benign, and the
FAA has a list of stuff they want a cardiologist to provide to make the
decision. It's not clear if the AME or OKC needs to do that. The list
of stuff is long: stress test, ekg, family history, etc.


this unnamed flyer is a little freaked out right now. he doesn't want
to break the law, but doesn't want to give up his one true love,
flying!

thanks,
unnamedflyer

On Thu, 04 Aug 2005 19:28:45 GMT, "Steve Foley"
wrote:

My guess is that the doctor confused him with his brother.
The pilot's vague memories are probably regarding his brother.

Plus there is the universal tendency of families' trying to spoil the
fun of a relative they suspect of having too much fun. Probably his
parents made the whole thing up, just to put him in his place.


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
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the blog: www.danford.net
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Cub Driver wrote:

Plus there is the universal tendency of families' trying to spoil the
fun of a relative they suspect of having too much fun. Probably his
parents made the whole thing up, just to put him in his place.

That possibility also occurred to me. If my mother had known about the way the
FAA medical board works when I was training, I'd probably *still* be waiting on
my student pilot's certificate.

I can guarantee one thing. If you report a condition and then discover that the
old medical records don't exist any more, you're in for a *very* long and
expensive road.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

I'm no lawyer but I think that in a court of law, it would be
considered hearsay. Did the person reminding you of your heart murmur
provide evidence? How do you know the other person's recollection was
indeed accurate? My parents barely remember which kid is which, let
alone who had this procedure or that one. Presumably, since you were an
infant at the time, the person was not REMINDing you of anything -
indeed s/he was relaying a story that could be true or false.

Of course, due diligence might yield additional information, but is it
reasonable to expect you to investigate a heart murmur as an infant (a
VERY common condition - almost all babies are born with a hole in their
heart that seals up within about a week) when the symptoms do not
currently present?

I'm no doctor either. But if it were me, I would mention it to my AME
next time I went in for a medical. Tell him someone told you that you
had a heart murmur as an infant . I suspect he'll pay attention for a
bit, maybe double check, and determine if there is a problem that
requires attention. But he is qualified to make that distinction and
report (or not report) appropriately. And if he reports, it's probably
for your own safety...


wrote in
oups.com:


Okay, here's an odd situation.

30-something pilot, been flying a few years, have had a couple of
class III medical examinations; no problems.

On a recent visit home, pilot's family remind him that as infant he
had a heart murmur. There were checkups for a few years, but no
restrictions, meds, problems, etc of any sort.

Pilot vaguely remembers some of this on being reminded, but also
knows
he's never mentioned it to an AME. (As far as he knows, there's no
murmur today; at least no doctor or AME has mentioned it during an
exam in the last 20 years.)

Pilot has a one year old medical good for two more years.

1. does the pilot divulge to FAA said childhood murmur?
2. if so, to whom? AME? Oklahoma City?
3. does he wait until next exam (couple of years) or do so now?
4. If going to divulge, should he go get fancy/expensive tests
*first*
or let FAA or AME ask for said tests?

Some seriously Googling about murmurs shows the protocol for murmurs
to be that they are FAA disqualifying until shown to be benign, and
the FAA has a list of stuff they want a cardiologist to provide to
make the decision. It's not clear if the AME or OKC needs to do that.
The list of stuff is long: stress test, ekg, family history, etc.


this unnamed flyer is a little freaked out right now. he doesn't want
to break the law, but doesn't want to give up his one true love,
flying!

thanks,
unnamedflyer

Judah wrote:
I'm no doctor either. But if it were me, I would mention it to my AME
next time I went in for a medical. Tell him someone told you that you
had a heart murmur as an infant . I suspect he'll pay attention for a
bit, maybe double check, and determine if there is a problem that
requires attention. But he is qualified to make that distinction and
report (or not report) appropriately. And if he reports, it's probably
for your own safety...


I owuldn't be inclined to mention it. If the AME can't hear one now when he
listens, what possible significance can one have been back when you were a kid.
Murmurs generally indicate an incompetent valve, ie, one that leaks. They are
fairly common in kids and people grow out of them all the time. If the doc
can't hear one now, why open a can of worms for the FAA to screw you over with?

Want to listen for one? Lay a stethescope on your chest and listen. Normal
hearts go lub-dub. Murmurs go whoosh-whoosh. If you don't hear it, there isn't
one. For an exagerated murmur sound, find a dialysis patient that has an AV
shunt in his arm. Listen to it (the shunt)... the loudest murmur on the planet.

My AME told me the main thing the FAA looks at is any condition that may cause
incapacitation. Competent valves don't... so I wouldn't feel particularly
guilty over the sin of omission.

Of much more concern to me would be a murmur that appeared where none had
previously been. That would get my attention... the doc's too.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

VE