Texas Taildraggers

I was going to spend = $30k on a taildragger.

Your realistic options, if you want to stick to metal (and lacking a
hangar, I certainly would) are a C-120 or C-140 (many are now
all-metal), a Luscombe, a metallized short wing Piper (Pacer, Clipper,
etc - there are a few out there), and the oddball conversions. There
are C-150's and Yankees converted to tailwheel. There are also some
experimental options.

Other than just flying around (which all of them will do) what is your
actual mission profile?

Rough/short strips? Long trips? What made you choose the Texas
Taildragger to begin with?

Michael

wrote:
George Patterson wrote:

: I spoke with a fellow who redid his Champ. IIRC, his cost was a bit over $2,000.
: A lot depends on whether you use bolts of fabric and glue the stuff directly to
: the frame or buy pre-sewn envelopes. Maule glues the fabric onto the frame.

: Maule Flight will charge you $12,000 for a strip and recover.

... but then it must be painted as well, right Depending on how much of *that*
you do yourself, it could cost considerably more than the recovering.

Both costs I quoted include painting. In the case of the Maule, $12,000 included
stripping paint from metal and fiberglass parts, removing the fabric, replacing
and silver-coating the fabric, priming the other parts of the aircraft, and
shooting with polyurethane color coats in a Maule standard paint scheme. That
cost was obtained from Rautgunde Maule at the AOPA Expo in Philadelphia some
years back, though. It might be higher today.

The guy that redid his Champ painted it with the not-so-accurate blue/yellow
military scheme. I don't remember what type of color coats he used. The gun he
was using appeared to me to be an older design (not HVLP).

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

Maule Driver wrote:

Is that without paint?

That's the whole job, paint and all. I got that price from Rautgunde several
years ago, though. It may have gone up. They also had a price of ~$15,000 for a
complete renovation.

By the way, I have a '96 "we have them on sale" MX7180a model (actually
built in '95). Not the good paint (still doing it against the hangar
wall). Not the really bad (auto)paint. IOTW, it chips off slowly.

If I'd bought the 180, I might still have mine. On the other hand, the loan
would've been larger and I might have lost it all.

I found out what the paint scheme was from a Randolph representative at Oshkosh
several years ago. He said that Maule used the Ceconite process, which specifies
a coat of nitrate dope, followed by silver butyrate. He said they would add a
coat of white butyrate over the silver as a primer and then spray the enamel
over that. He said it was possible to sand off the color coats (the enamel) down
to the white dope primer or even down to the silver. Don't go into the silver
coat at all -- if you see it, stop. Once you get the enamel off of the fabric,
spray with butyrate rejuvenator. After that, you can apply either polyurethane
or butyrate top coats.

If you're plane is like mine was when I sold it, you can see patches of the
white butyrate where the color coats have flaked off of the horizontal stabilizer.

We did not discuss redoing the paint on the metal or fiberglass sections (unless
maybe he was recommending that technique for those sections too). I know that
the upper surfaces of my wings were badly peeled by the time I sold it, so
something would have to be done there. Since chemical paint strippers will melt
Ceconite in a heartbeat, I would consider something like bead-blasting.

Randolph made the paints Maule was using back then.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

"Michael" writes:

I was going to spend = $30k on a taildragger.

Your realistic options, if you want to stick to metal (and lacking a
hangar, I certainly would) are a C-120 or C-140 (many are now
all-metal), a Luscombe, a metallized short wing Piper (Pacer, Clipper,
etc - there are a few out there), and the oddball conversions. There
are C-150's and Yankees converted to tailwheel. There are also some
experimental options.

Other than just flying around (which all of them will do) what is your
actual mission profile?

Rough/short strips? Long trips? What made you choose the Texas
Taildragger to begin with?

I was going through my logbook, and I realized that 2/3 of my PIC time
over the last year was taking friends on tours of the SF Bay. I want a
taildragger because I want to up keep proficiency my, and because
they are more fun (e.i. fewer people have them). My thinking is that
anything I can rent, I'm better off renting than owning. That includes
1X2 Cessnas, Cherokee-derived Pipers and Citabrias.

I'm buying my first airplane; I want to make sure I don't bite off
more than I can chew in terms of TCO. I've never had to deal with
aircraft maintenance, and even though I wan to learn, my experience
right now is limited to clearing fouled plugs. As far as certified
taildraggers go, TTs are about the least demanding in maintenance,
parts and mechanics AFAICT, followed closely by 120/140. I also like
the side-by-side seating - nice when you're flying with a friend you
want to talk to, though not an absolute requirement. I should also
mention that I'm 6'5" (though skinny so I weigh the FAA-legal 170lbs)

I'm not set on a TT, it just seemed to fit the bill. I've heard of
tailwheel Yankees, but have never see one. A TT is a C-150/152
converted to TW, right? I've never flown a Luscombe, but it would
probably work if I find one in good shape within the budget. You also
mention experimentals. My anecdotal experience with them suggests
that the high-quality ones are priced at least as expensively as
certified airplanes, and the affordable examples often show average
workmanship. (I've been an EAA member since 1993 but never got serious
enough about buy an experimental to make a statement here)

Ari.

--
Elections only count as free and trials as fair if you can lose money
betting on the outcome.

A TT is a C-150/152
converted to TW, right?

Yup.

I should also
mention that I'm 6'5" (though skinny so I weigh the FAA-legal 170lbs).

You'd better see if you can get into a 150. The bottom of the panel
will be banging your legs and your head will be close to the ceiling.
We had 150s as trainers and tall guys didn't like them.

Dan

writes:

I should also
mention that I'm 6'5" (though skinny so I weigh the FAA-legal 170lbs).

You'd better see if you can get into a 150. The bottom of the panel
will be banging your legs and your head will be close to the ceiling.
We had 150s as trainers and tall guys didn't like them.

I appreciate your concern. My first ever dual hours were in 152s, and
I've since logged PIC time in 150s. I've never flown a Luscombe, so I
mentioned /*that*/ as a concern.

Ari.

--
Elections only count as free and trials as fair if you can lose money
betting on the outcome.

That's what I seem to have. I bought some Randolph paint to touch-up
but never did. I have chipping on the stab as you described. Wings are
fine except for fairings. In fact, every surface facing the prop blast
as been chipped to primer due to flying in the rain. Oh well.

I would love to get it redone. With 900 to go to TBO, I'll probably fly
it out while doing some homebuilding. Except for the chipping paint,
it's been a (cheap) joy. Simplicity is good.

BTW, I didn't buy new - 3rd owner at 35 hours.

Thanks!

George Patterson wrote:
I found out what the paint scheme was from a Randolph representative at
Oshkosh several years ago. He said that Maule used the Ceconite process,
which specifies a coat of nitrate dope, followed by silver butyrate. He
said they would add a coat of white butyrate over the silver as a primer
and then spray the enamel over that. He said it was possible to sand off
the color coats (the enamel) down to the white dope primer or even down
to the silver. Don't go into the silver coat at all -- if you see it,
stop. Once you get the enamel off of the fabric, spray with butyrate
rejuvenator. After that, you can apply either polyurethane or butyrate
top coats.

If you're plane is like mine was when I sold it, you can see patches of
the white butyrate where the color coats have flaked off of the
horizontal stabilizer.

Randolph made the paints Maule was using back then.

Maule Driver wrote:

I would love to get it redone.

One thing you might consider is to fly it down to Moultrie for an annual
inspection and have the work done at that time. Of course, Maule Flight isn't
the cheapest place for an annual, but they do the best work on Maules of any
place I know of.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

A question for you "dopers" out there.

I have seen a Citabria fabric aircraft sitting in a shop with the floor
covered in big paint pieces that I was told had been stripped by using shop
air and a small air nozzle on a blow gun. I had flown the aircraft
previously and while it's dope (could be paint?) wasn't great it was
flyable. I was told that the surface coat had come off surprisingly easily
and the silver primer that was left looked like it would not require much
further preperation for paint. I was told it only took a couple of hours.
If I remember correctly the wings and control surfaces were removed and
finished separately. Is it common to be able to remove paint or dope in
this manner?

"George Patterson" wrote in message
news:9j9Ne.10281$Yb.7100@trndny06...
Maule Driver wrote:

Is that without paint?

That's the whole job, paint and all. I got that price from Rautgunde
several
years ago, though. It may have gone up. They also had a price of ~$15,000
for a
complete renovation.

By the way, I have a '96 "we have them on sale" MX7180a model (actually
built in '95). Not the good paint (still doing it against the hangar
wall). Not the really bad (auto)paint. IOTW, it chips off slowly.

If I'd bought the 180, I might still have mine. On the other hand, the
loan
would've been larger and I might have lost it all.

I found out what the paint scheme was from a Randolph representative at
Oshkosh
several years ago. He said that Maule used the Ceconite process, which
specifies
a coat of nitrate dope, followed by silver butyrate. He said they would
add a
coat of white butyrate over the silver as a primer and then spray the
enamel
over that. He said it was possible to sand off the color coats (the
enamel) down
to the white dope primer or even down to the silver. Don't go into the
silver
coat at all -- if you see it, stop. Once you get the enamel off of the
fabric,
spray with butyrate rejuvenator. After that, you can apply either
polyurethane
or butyrate top coats.

If you're plane is like mine was when I sold it, you can see patches of
the
white butyrate where the color coats have flaked off of the horizontal
stabilizer.

We did not discuss redoing the paint on the metal or fiberglass sections
(unless
maybe he was recommending that technique for those sections too). I know
that
the upper surfaces of my wings were badly peeled by the time I sold it, so
something would have to be done there. Since chemical paint strippers will
melt
Ceconite in a heartbeat, I would consider something like bead-blasting.

Randolph made the paints Maule was using back then.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

private wrote:

Is it common to be able to remove paint or dope in
this manner?

The Randolph paint rep to whom I spoke said that it is not unusual for an enamel
top-coat to peel off of dope this way; in fact, he said I might try using a
pressure washer on my Maule to see if I could avoid sanding the enamel off. I've
never seen dope top-coats separate from dope undercoats, but perhaps it's
possible if the undercoat was not prepared properly. I do not know how well
polyurethane bonds to dope.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.