Engine failure

In article ,
"Jase Vanover" wrote:



Carb heat had been on since downwind. I was taught to put carb heat on as
part of my downwind checks every time, when doing manouvers at lower
throttle settings, and approximately every 15 minutes during cruise... which
I'm pretty faithful to. It is also standard part of my runup (both at 1700
RPM and at idle).

This was my third circuit. Carb heat was applied during downwind for all
three of them.

You make a good point that when I did my shutdown after restarting, I didn't
have carb heat on, so the engine not quiting and showing 800-900 could be
because carb heat wasn't on... though it didn't quit on my first two
landings either.


Carb ice is funny sometimes. Was doing a bunch of T&Gs in a 152. As
you, Carb Heat on downwind, push it off after pushing the throttle in on
takeoff. On my 7th or 8th "GO" the engine lost power and ran rough at
about 300' and quit as I made a right 270 back to the intersecting
runway. Made the runway, got a restart after a few moments, it ran real
rough for a bit then smoothed out. Shop checked it and found nothing
wrong, we assume it was carb ice.

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

Carb ice is funny sometimes. Was doing a bunch of T&Gs in a 152. As
you, Carb Heat on downwind, push it off after pushing the throttle in on
takeoff. On my 7th or 8th "GO" the engine lost power and ran rough at
about 300' and quit as I made a right 270 back to the intersecting
runway. Made the runway, got a restart after a few moments, it ran real
rough for a bit then smoothed out. Shop checked it and found nothing
wrong, we assume it was carb ice.

More likely the engine had loaded up with raw fuel. With carb
heat on, the mixture gets pretty rich, and with the throttle closed
there is very little airflow through the engine. Fuel can puddle in the
intake manifold, and upon opening the throttle all that gasoline is
sucked into the cylinders and floods them. It's worse if you shut the
carb heat off first, as the cold air reduces the vaporization of the
fuel.
Don't make long power-off glides when it's cold and with carb
heat on. Clear the engine often, and make sure it's ready to run if you
need it.

Dan

wrote

Don't make long power-off glides when it's cold and with carb
heat on. Clear the engine often, and make sure it's ready to run if you
need it.


That sure is different than the normal advice, isn't it?
--
Jim in NC

In article .com,
wrote:



More likely the engine had loaded up with raw fuel. With carb
heat on, the mixture gets pretty rich, and with the throttle closed
there is very little airflow through the engine. Fuel can puddle in the
intake manifold, and upon opening the throttle all that gasoline is
sucked into the cylinders and floods them. It's worse if you shut the
carb heat off first, as the cold air reduces the vaporization of the
fuel.
Don't make long power-off glides when it's cold and with carb
heat on. Clear the engine often, and make sure it's ready to run if you
need it.


No that isn't what happened. It was fine for the first couple hundered
feet of the climb. If it had loaded up it would have stumbled as I
added power.

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

"Jase Vanover"

I taxied to the maintenance hanger (after being directed there by the FBO
via radio notification of the situation), and explained what happened to
the maintenance guy. He said that there is a stop on the throttle to keep
the idle setting from being too low that probably needed adjustment. Even
so, during shutdown (after restarting), idle setting on the throttle was
still 800 - 900 RPM, which should be enough to keep the engine running I
would think.

Anyone else experienced this and can share their thoughts? I'm about a 60
hour pilot, so not much experience.

Part of the run-up is a slow idle check. You should pull the throttle
fairly hard to see if the idle speed falls significantly below the spec'd
minimum. I don't know if that's what happened to you, but it's pretty
common.

I was flying into La Guardia on Air Canada and I saw a Bonanza rolling out
with the engine stopped. By total coincidence, exiting the plane, I got a
call from that pilot's instructor who'd briefed the pilot on this X/C. He
said that there was a known problem with that plane and, I think, said that
it was not an uncommon problem with that type of plane. Odd thing,
coincidence.

Anyway, engines quitting on final is an occasional story topic. There you
go...

moo

Happy Dog wrote:

I was flying into La Guardia on Air Canada and I saw a Bonanza rolling out
with the engine stopped. By total coincidence, exiting the plane, I got a
call from that pilot's instructor who'd briefed the pilot on this X/C. He
said that there was a known problem with that plane and, I think, said that
it was not an uncommon problem with that type of plane. Odd thing,
coincidence.

My fuel-injected, turbo-normalized Bonanza had a newly rebuilt engine
installed last February. Upon completion of the work, I took the aircraft
up for the proper first flight break-in. When I landed, the engine quit
just as I touched down (low idle) on the runway.

I was able to restart and taxied back to talk to the mechanic. He adjusted
the low-idle mixture so I took the aircraft up for the second flight
break-in. Again, upon landing the engine quit.

Suspecting something else now, the mechanic ran the aircraft on the ground
and was able to duplicate the problem. He then suspected the fuel pump so
he took it off and sent it back to the company who supplied it to the
engine rebuilder for inspection. The fuel pump inspectors discovered metal
shavings inside the fuel pump that were cutting off fuel flow at low idle.
That opened up an entire finger pointing session. Nice...

The source of the shavings was never identified but it was concluded that
somehow they were introduced when the engine was on the test cell.


--
Peter
























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Peter R. wrote:

My fuel-injected, turbo-normalized Bonanza had a newly rebuilt engine
installed last February. Upon completion of the work, I took the aircraft
up for the proper first flight break-in. When I landed, the engine quit
just as I touched down (low idle) on the runway.

I was able to restart and taxied back to talk to the mechanic. He adjusted
the low-idle mixture so I took the aircraft up for the second flight
break-in. Again, upon landing the engine quit.

Suspecting something else now, the mechanic ran the aircraft on the ground
and was able to duplicate the problem. He then suspected the fuel pump so
he took it off and sent it back to the company who supplied it to the
engine rebuilder for inspection. The fuel pump inspectors discovered metal
shavings inside the fuel pump that were cutting off fuel flow at low idle.
That opened up an entire finger pointing session. Nice...

The source of the shavings was never identified but it was concluded that
somehow they were introduced when the engine was on the test cell.

I had a similar situation with a carburetor on the club's Archer. It
had been at the maintenance shop for some carb work. After ground
testing and a short flight around the patch, everything seemed be
working fine. So I took off and flew home. On final my descent rate
was a little fast, so I went to tweak the throttle and nothing happened.
Since I was less than a half a mile from the threshold with plenty of
altitude, it was no big deal to dead stick it in. I actually had enough
speed left on landing that had I been going the other way I probably
could have made it off the runway. (The runway at our airport has a
slight grade and I was landing uphill.) Instead I rolled to a stop
almost exactly mid-way down the runway and had to call for a tow because
the engine wouldn't restart.

It was discovered afterward that the shop that had worked on the carb
had gotten a washer stuck between the top half and bottom half of the
carb that prevented the float from properly shutting off the fuel flow.
The result was a flooded engine on final.


-m
--
## Mark T. Dame
## VP, Product Development
## MFM Software, Inc. (http://www.mfm.com/)
"And so it was only with the advent of pocket computers that the
startling truth became finally apparent, and it was this:

Numbers written on restaurant checks within the confines of
restaurants do not follow the same mathematical laws as numbers
written on any other pieces of paper in any other parts of the
Universe."
-- Life, the Universe, and Everything, Douglas Adams

Here it is: a graph I was hoping to find on the 'net that shows the
temperature ranges and dewpoint/humidites at which icing can occur.
Note that the range extends from well below freezing to over 100
degrees F. This graph will apply to avgas; mogas has a higher
volatility (evaporation rate) and can cause icing outside these
parameters.

http://www.wsaa.net/icing.htm

Icing can also occur in very cold temps if carb heat IS used: ice
crystals in the air can melt as the incoming air is heated, collect on
the throttle plate and other parts, and freeze due to the pressure drop
and evaporative cooling.

Dan

An A&P and/or IA made a mistake working on a engine? To hear them tell, they
are the "experts" and you should never work on your own plane nor should you
be anywhere within 100 miles of the shop when they work on them.

Tom

"Mark T. Dame" wrote in message
...
Peter R. wrote:

My fuel-injected, turbo-normalized Bonanza had a newly rebuilt engine
installed last February. Upon completion of the work, I took the
aircraft
up for the proper first flight break-in. When I landed, the engine quit
just as I touched down (low idle) on the runway. I was able to restart
and taxied back to talk to the mechanic. He adjusted
the low-idle mixture so I took the aircraft up for the second flight
break-in. Again, upon landing the engine quit.

Suspecting something else now, the mechanic ran the aircraft on the
ground
and was able to duplicate the problem. He then suspected the fuel pump
so
he took it off and sent it back to the company who supplied it to the
engine rebuilder for inspection. The fuel pump inspectors discovered
metal
shavings inside the fuel pump that were cutting off fuel flow at low
idle.
That opened up an entire finger pointing session. Nice...

The source of the shavings was never identified but it was concluded that
somehow they were introduced when the engine was on the test cell.

I had a similar situation with a carburetor on the club's Archer. It had
been at the maintenance shop for some carb work. After ground testing and
a short flight around the patch, everything seemed be working fine. So I
took off and flew home. On final my descent rate was a little fast, so I
went to tweak the throttle and nothing happened. Since I was less than a
half a mile from the threshold with plenty of altitude, it was no big deal
to dead stick it in. I actually had enough speed left on landing that had
I been going the other way I probably could have made it off the runway.
(The runway at our airport has a slight grade and I was landing uphill.)
Instead I rolled to a stop almost exactly mid-way down the runway and had
to call for a tow because the engine wouldn't restart.

It was discovered afterward that the shop that had worked on the carb had
gotten a washer stuck between the top half and bottom half of the carb
that prevented the float from properly shutting off the fuel flow. The
result was a flooded engine on final.


-m
--
## Mark T. Dame
## VP, Product Development
## MFM Software, Inc. (http://www.mfm.com/)
"And so it was only with the advent of pocket computers that the
startling truth became finally apparent, and it was this:

Numbers written on restaurant checks within the confines of
restaurants do not follow the same mathematical laws as numbers
written on any other pieces of paper in any other parts of the
Universe."
-- Life, the Universe, and Everything, Douglas Adams

"Tom" wrote in message
...
An A&P and/or IA made a mistake working on a engine? To hear them tell,
they are the "experts" and you should never work on your own plane nor
should you be anywhere within 100 miles of the shop when they work on
them.


AMEs think anything accessible to a pilot is controlled by an idiot.
Pilots think that AMEs are trying to kill them.
A schizophrenic is a pilot who is also an AME

Happy landings,