Is EAA Working on an STC for Ethanol-laced MoGas?

Earl, while I respect and admire you for your work in the EAA and on the
ASTM committee on the the autogas subject, as the secretary (whose mission
statement is generally to accurately report the proceedings of the group) I
respectfully note:



automotive gasoline (ASTM D4814) with 10% ethonal added. Other

ethanol


to a fuel containing 10% ethonal. The aircraft that was tested failed

ethanol


EAA concluded that the modificiations needed to address the issues we

modifications


modifications were made the aircraft may still fail the requered

required


To assure you that EAA does not have some kind of biasis against

bias


ethonal fuels the same test concluded that an aircraft with some

ethanol


modification the aircraft could be certificated to a 100% ethonal fuel.

ethanol


The chemistry of a 10% ethonal 90% gasoline fuel is a dificult one to

ethanol difficult


in. Particularly when you are dealing with exsisting aircraft that

existing


incetive, from the manufacturers standpoint, to design such an aircraft

incentive manufacturers'



fuel. One test showed corrosion in electronic bost pumps that lead to

boost


eletrical arching in the pump itself. This condition discovered during

electrical arcing



tests and to EAA's knowldge has not ever occured on an certificated


knowledge occurred



we should consitrate our efforts on in other areas. EAA continues to

concentrate


both avaition and automotive fuels specificaitons. I currently serve

aviation specifications


as the secretary of the avaition gasoline subcommittee.

aviation



I hope everyone who reads this understand that it is not practicle to

understands practical


operate an older aircraft on a autogasline with 10% ethonal at this

auto gasoline ethanol



afordable, accessable and safe for recreational aviaiton. EAA

affordable aviation



make fuel more afordable for recreational aviation. The Autogas STC's

affordable STCs



has saved aircraft owners millions of dollars over the years and EAA

have saved



Earl Lawrence
EAA
V.P. Industry and Regulatory Affairs


Jesus Murphy, my EAA dues are going to pay a VP of EAA as illiterate as
this? Not only that, but he is my representative on the ASTM autogas
committee? No wonder we are in the bind that we find ourselves.

I want a public answer from the EAA management why a person of this dubious
literacy is allowed to represent me and my fellow members on high level
government committees and task forces.

Jim

Depends on class. Top fuel runs nitro, but there is an alchohol class.
They burn about 10 gallons in 7 seconds, BTW. High pressure and BIG
nozzels. The reason for alchohol is cost. Not of the fuel, but of the
engine. Engines that can run nitro are very expensive to build and
maintain. Any garage mechanic can work up an alchohol engine, well
maybe not any, but it puts in within the reach of a hobbyist with
limited bux.

Doug wrote:

Depends on class. Top fuel runs nitro, but there is an alchohol class.

But isn't it methanol, not ethanol?

George Patterson
We don't stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop
playing.

"Doug" wrote in message
oups.com...
Depends on class. Top fuel runs nitro, but there is an alchohol class.
They burn about 10 gallons in 7 seconds, BTW. High pressure and BIG
nozzels. The reason for alchohol is cost. Not of the fuel, but of the
engine. Engines that can run nitro are very expensive to build and
maintain. Any garage mechanic can work up an alchohol engine, well
maybe not any, but it puts in within the reach of a hobbyist with
limited bux.

His point was that the subject is ethanol, and dragsters run on methanol.
Both alcohol, but not equal.

I hope I haven't consumed any methanol today, anyway!g
--
Jim in NC

Mr. Lawrence,
Thanks for weighing in. Can you provide some links where the results of these tests are archived? I'd like to learn
more about ethanol as a fuel. A previous poster mentioned an exhibition airplane running on ethanol. I also recall
this bird and it seems I saw it fly at Oshkosh, circa 1997. It seems that it was a black fabric biplane with green
trim? I also ran across this: "But MOTHER's researchers weren't the only ones at the 1980 Fly-In who were piloting
vehicles powered by renewable fuel. Paul Poberezny (the EAA's "chief") was there to greet us with his "Pober Pixie"
airplane, which had been converted to ethanol the previous summer. " while doing a Google search. It seems that
corrosion issues can be handled with additives.



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I can not provide a internet link to the test data, some of the tests
were EAA tests, some FAA tests, other tests have been published in SAE
papers, and still others are published in ASTM research reports none of
these are available on-line. The black fabric aircraft you saw
previously was Max Schauck's aircraft in the late 1990's he was running
the aircraft on ETBE and ether made from ethanol. The aircraft was
flown from show to show on 100LL and then he would do the show using
the ETBE. This was done, the use of 100LL, as you just can not pull up
to the pump at an airport and get ETBE. Max also did a significant
amount of work on certificating aircraft engines to 100% ethanol which
as I pointed out is different from gasoline with 10% ethanol. As far I
as know no one has ever certificated an engine or an aircraft to use a
gasoline with 10% ethanol.
EAA and Cessna completed research on the use of ETBE as an aircraft
fuel and all tests indicated is was an excellent fuel. But ETBE and
MTBE have no been outlawed in many parts of the US do to concerns of
contaminated water sources from ethers such as MTBE.
I will repeat to readers of this thread that EAA has never said that
one cannot convert an aircraft engine or an airframe to use 100%
ethanol. What we have said is that we were unable to certificate an
aircraft with the use of a gasoline with 10% ethanol. Aircraft and
aircraft engines have been certificated to use 100% ethanol. Also
remember getting an aircraft to work using a particular fuel is not the
same as getting it certificated to use that fuel. Certification
testing covers a wide range of conditions that some aircraft may never
see but must be addressed if we are going to let Type certificated
aircraft use the fuel. Remember an STC for a fuel would allow that
aircraft to fly with paying passengers at night, IFR in bad weather, in
the most extreme conditions e.g. Alaskan winter or Saharan Summer, so
the STC tests must cover all know operating conditions.
Earl Lawrence

Jim
It is good to see your manners are as good as they always have been.
Happy thanksgiving.
Earl

Uh oh, methanol vs ethanol thing. You know, I'm not sure.....

Drag racers run on methanol.

In article .com,
"Doug" wrote:

Drag racers run on methanol.

But drag racers usually tear everything down after one or a few more
races! That is not the same as exposing fuel systems to constant
immersion in alcohols.

--
Remve "_" from email to reply to me personally.

Mr Weir
Sometimes you carry that EAA chip on your shoulder to truly ridiculous
levels. Mr Lawrence has posted a detailed, informative and totally
understandable reply to the questions raised. He did so on
Thanksgiving Day... If you can't find it within yourself to recognize
that these are actually COMMENDABLE traits in an EAA employee, for
goodness' sake don't go on the attack about it. You really do come
across as a keyboard warrior of the pettiest kind.
Paul Stuart