Can I fly it at night?

Or later certified with one per 91.215(b)(3)

"ET" wrote in message
...

The airplane may have had an external wind-driven generator
originally, you could restore that with a modern alternator
at the cost of a 1 or 2 mph.


But with a "modern alternator" you now have an engine driven electrical
system, and all of the requirements that go along with it...
(transponder within mode c veil).


Not if the "modern alternator" is used in a restoration of the external
wind-driven generator. But that wouldn't be a restoration, that would be a
conversion.

"bstanton" null.com wrote in message
...

I have a 1941 Chief with lights on it. There's one light on
each wingtip and one on the top of the fin. There's no
anticollision light/strobe or landing light. There are
wires from the 3 position lights to the cockpit, where they
end. The engine has no alternator or generator and never
has had one. There's no battery, battery compartment,
starter or electrical system. I do have a portable sealed
lead acid battery that I charge between flights to power a
radio and intercom.

There's nothing in the paperwork about "day VFR only" and
there's no AFM or even any POH.

I've looked at 91.209 and 91.205 (c). I've got position
lights, I won't be operating for hire, so I suppose a
landing light is not legally required. I suppose a larger
battery would be an adequate source of electrical energy for
short flights. Can I fly at night if I install an
anticollision light? Anyone want to comment on what I need
to legally fly at night for short local flights? Does
anyone think the disconnected lights have made the aircraft
legally unairworthy for the last 65 years? Does anyone know
how these were originally powered (Dry cells?)


This doesn't seem to be worth the trouble for only short flights. Let's say
you are able to install the required lighting and operate it with only a
battery. Are you going to be content to make only short flights at night,
or are you going to wish you could fly a bit further? Longer flights would
require a complete engine-driven electrical system, which is probably out of
the question. If you want to fly at night sell the Chief and buy an
airplane with an electrical system.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:


This doesn't seem to be worth the trouble for only short flights. Let's say
you are able to install the required lighting and operate it with only a
battery. Are you going to be content to make only short flights at night,
or are you going to wish you could fly a bit further?

I think the answer is yes, I'd be OK with short flights.
Here's my thinking:

1) I could keep night currency. That way I could just rent
a plane with lights and an electrical system for longer
night flights with less hassle and less expense getting
current. Right now, if I want to rent a plane and return at
night it's a royal pain to get night current before the
flight I want to make, and half the time the planned
night-return flight gets canceled anyway.

2) I could still do the quick flight up and around the
pattern with a friend who wanted to just see what it looked
like at night.

3) I would have a bit more flexibility with return flights.
I've occasionally found more headwind than expected and
worried about making it home before night.

4) It would be nice to make myself a bit more more visible
in the pattern at the end of a flight.

It appears a wind driven generator was probably originally
used for the lights - are they still available?

"bstanton" null.com wrote in message
...

I think the answer is yes, I'd be OK with short flights.
Here's my thinking:

1) I could keep night currency. That way I could just rent
a plane with lights and an electrical system for longer
night flights with less hassle and less expense getting
current. Right now, if I want to rent a plane and return at
night it's a royal pain to get night current before the
flight I want to make, and half the time the planned
night-return flight gets canceled anyway.

2) I could still do the quick flight up and around the
pattern with a friend who wanted to just see what it looked
like at night.

3) I would have a bit more flexibility with return flights.
I've occasionally found more headwind than expected and
worried about making it home before night.

4) It would be nice to make myself a bit more more visible
in the pattern at the end of a flight.

It appears a wind driven generator was probably originally
used for the lights - are they still available?


I believe I've seen one advertised in the not too distant past. They didn't
work very well, historically speaking. They had a tendency to throw blades.

How long is a "short" flight? Have you determined what the power
requirements are for the anticollision, position, and instrument lights for
a flight of that length? Have you done any calculations on the weight?

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

How long is a "short" flight? Have you determined what the power
requirements are for the anticollision, position, and instrument lights for
a flight of that length? Have you done any calculations on the weight?

My original post was intended to start the process of
looking at the problems I would encounter, so I had not done
a lot of work on the practicality of the project.
Nonetheless, since the plane originally had lights, it seems
reasonable to expect that this is possible to do.

As to your questions, I've thought a bit about power
requirements. There are three position lights. I've seen
LED systems that draw less than 1.5 amps total for the three
lights. The strobe LED system I looked at had specs of .4
amps at 24 volts, so it's probably close to twice that at 12
volts, say 2.5 amps for the whole system if I spend lots of
cash for an LED based system. I currently use a single 8 AH
sealed lead acid, and could afford the weight of two more of
those, so an hour flight seems possible with some margin and
that still leaves a fully charged backup battery and my comm
battery.

Does anyone here have current draw specs for standard lights
and strobes?

When I first considered this, I hoped I could just replace
the bulbs, and substitute a sealed lead acid for original
dry cells. It didn't take much work to confirm I'd need to
install at least a strobe, and it looks like a wind
generator is probably also needed to get it back to its
original certified condition. Does anyone know of any
aircraft flying at night using only batteries?

Maybe "bstanton" could get together with "keepitrunning"? One of them has
too much electricity http://tinyurl.com/8zydr and the other needs some. If
they share ideas, it should all balance out and be feng shooie.

Rich S.

"Half this game is ninety percent mental."
-- Philadelphia Phillies manager, Danny Ozark

"bstanton" null.com wrote in message
...

My original post was intended to start the process of
looking at the problems I would encounter, so I had not done
a lot of work on the practicality of the project.
Nonetheless, since the plane originally had lights, it seems
reasonable to expect that this is possible to do.


Well, it's certainly possible to run position lights, but that's not enough
today, today you also need an anticollision light. When your airplane was
built wiring for navigation lights was factory-installed standard equipment.
Navigation lights, landing lights, radio gear, battery, and a wind-driven
generator were optional equipment. You said there are lights on each
wingtip and the fin, are there actual lampholders there or is there just a
mounting pad for them? I have a 7AC, they were also pre-wired for position
lights but I never saw one that had them. The mount pads are clearly
discernible under the fabric, however.



As to your questions, I've thought a bit about power
requirements. There are three position lights. I've seen
LED systems that draw less than 1.5 amps total for the three
lights. The strobe LED system I looked at had specs of .4
amps at 24 volts, so it's probably close to twice that at 12
volts, say 2.5 amps for the whole system if I spend lots of
cash for an LED based system. I currently use a single 8 AH
sealed lead acid, and could afford the weight of two more of
those, so an hour flight seems possible with some margin and
that still leaves a fully charged backup battery and my comm
battery.

Does anyone here have current draw specs for standard lights
and strobes?

When I first considered this, I hoped I could just replace
the bulbs, and substitute a sealed lead acid for original
dry cells. It didn't take much work to confirm I'd need to
install at least a strobe, and it looks like a wind
generator is probably also needed to get it back to its
original certified condition. Does anyone know of any
aircraft flying at night using only batteries?


Do you have the type certificate data sheet for your airplane? That would
specify what electrical gear was available for installation.

I own a Champ' but like most Aeronca owners I've become a bit of a buff on
the whole line. I've seen many photos of pre-war Chiefs with the mount pads
for position lights quite discernible but without the actual lights. I've
seen some with position lights installed but without a wind-driven
generator, so it was certainly possible to operate them with just a battery.
The only Chief I recall seeing with a wind-driven generator had it mounted
above the cabin, but that was the Chief Johnnie Jones used on his
transcontinental flight in 1938 so it was probably not the standard
installation. That generator looked significantly larger than others for
this purpose.

bstanton wrote:

Does anyone here have current draw specs for standard lights
and strobes?

Whelen makes a small power supply for a single strobe that pulls 1.7 amps at 14
volts. They also make a flasher that will drive two wingtip strobes that pulls 4
amps.

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.