Intercepting the ILS

FWIW, I have been chewed out by Seattle Approach for intercepting higher
than the published GSIA of 2200 for the ILS 13R.


wrote in message
oups.com...
Hello,

Yesterday I was out getting an IPC. We were doing the Stockton, CA
ILS. ATC
had us intercepting the localizer at 2000 feet. The altitude for
glideslope
interception is 1800 ( underlined ).

My old CFII taught me that the glideslope interception altitude on
the chart is a minimum altitude, and that it was fine to intercept it
higher. So I just tootled along
at 2000 - figuring it was simpler to do one configuration change at GS
interception
rather than three changes - one to descend the 200 feet, another to
level off, and
a third to intercept the glideslope.

The new CFII criticized this procedure and told me that the plate
specified 1800,
and it was wrong to intercept at 2000. Which one was right?

- Jerry Kaidor ( )

In article , Bob Gardner
wrote:

FWIW, I have been chewed out by Seattle Approach for intercepting higher
than the published GSIA of 2200 for the ILS 13R.

For which airport?

In article , Bob Gardner
wrote:

FWIW, I have been chewed out by Seattle Approach for intercepting higher
than the published GSIA of 2200 for the ILS 13R.

Nevermind the "Which airport" question if my cancel didn't work, I
found it; Boeing field, I assume.

I can't see why they would have chewed you out -- if the instruction
was something like "Maintain 2500 until established on the localizer,
cleared the ILS 13R," you did nothing improper. If he wanted you at
2200, he should have instructed you to do so; the chart only lists it
as a minimum altitude, as most do.

What if you weren't DME-equipped? How would you know you were within
10NM of NOLLA, and thus safe to descend to 2200? You really wouldn't,
unless you had done the procedure turn, or the controller had cleared
you with a "You're X miles from NOLLA" (and X happened to be less than
10 miles).

--
Garner R. Miller
ATP/CFII/MEI
Clifton Park, NY =USA=
http://www.garnermiller.com/

We intercepted at 3000 and rode it down more out of inertia than anything
else. We did have a "maintain 2200" instruction while at three but not a
"descend and maintain." As I recall, I was coming from the northwest and had
picked up the localizer 20 miles or so out. Three is pretty popular around
here for the lowest altitude prior to an approach, and in retrospect I think
the controller just wanted me to make a hole for someone else to fit into.
Gotta admit I felt a little sheepish about getting called on it because I
knew better.
"Garner Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , Bob Gardner
wrote:

FWIW, I have been chewed out by Seattle Approach for intercepting higher
than the published GSIA of 2200 for the ILS 13R.

Nevermind the "Which airport" question if my cancel didn't work, I
found it; Boeing field, I assume.

I can't see why they would have chewed you out -- if the instruction
was something like "Maintain 2500 until established on the localizer,
cleared the ILS 13R," you did nothing improper. If he wanted you at
2200, he should have instructed you to do so; the chart only lists it
as a minimum altitude, as most do.

What if you weren't DME-equipped? How would you know you were within
10NM of NOLLA, and thus safe to descend to 2200? You really wouldn't,
unless you had done the procedure turn, or the controller had cleared
you with a "You're X miles from NOLLA" (and X happened to be less than
10 miles).

--
Garner R. Miller
ATP/CFII/MEI
Clifton Park, NY =USA=
http://www.garnermiller.com/

"Bob Gardner" wrote in message
news

FWIW, I have been chewed out by Seattle Approach for intercepting higher
than the published GSIA of 2200 for the ILS 13R.


What was your clearance?

I can tell you that I have been told to intercept the ILS at altitudes
well above the glideslope intercept altitude at the FAF by ATC. I have
been cleared for the approach outside of the FAF. I followed their
instructions and flew the approach. Never have had a problem. I don't
see what the problem is, so long as you are intercepting the glideslope
from below, and so long as you are at least as high as is charted you
should be. So long as you make sure you are at the proper altitude when
you cross the FAF, I don't see the problem. Unless I see it as unsafe
or some obvious violation, I do what ATC tells me to do.

What did your CFI tell you to do? Decline ATC's instruction? If you do
that, the ATC guy is going to be confused and probably ask you what it
is you want to do. In which case you can tell him that you want to go
down to 1800' and intercept there. Ok, descend to 1800', intercept and
cleared. Not much different than what you did, now is it? In the
meantime, the freq is crowded and in all the confusion someone else is
hosed, maybe you too as ATC might have to leave you and talk to someone
else. Or maybe, in the meantime your plane has gotten out of shape
(have fun going missed). To some extent we pilots have to rely on ATC
to be telling us to do the right thing. Sure, watch out for being
cleared into a mountain, but something like this seems ok to me.....

Some pilots take the tactic not to have ATC control them, but have them
control ATC by telling ATC what they are going to do and that they
expect that as their clearance. You can try that approach, but
sometimes it backfires. Me, I have discovered I can't fly the airplane
and do ATC's job too. But then I rarely have the luxury of a copilot.

Another comment I would make is if you decline ATC's instruction at
this point, you are probably going to end up going missed (or
intercepting the glideslope from above).

Doug wrote:
I can tell you that I have been told to intercept the ILS at altitudes
well above the glideslope intercept altitude at the FAF by ATC. I have
been cleared for the approach outside of the FAF. I followed their
instructions and flew the approach. Never have had a problem. I don't
see what the problem is, so long as you are intercepting the glideslope
from below, and so long as you are at least as high as is charted you
should be. So long as you make sure you are at the proper altitude when
you cross the FAF, I don't see the problem. Unless I see it as unsafe
or some obvious violation, I do what ATC tells me to do.

The OP didn't say what ATC's instruction was, so we don't know. I don't think
ATC's instruction is relevant to the OP's question. The OP just wanted to know
whether descent to 1800 was mandatory. As far as we know, ATC didn't instruct
the OP one way or the other.

snip

"Doug" wrote in message
ups.com...

What did your CFI tell you to do? Decline ATC's instruction? If you do
that, the ATC guy is going to be confused and probably ask you what it
is you want to do. In which case you can tell him that you want to go
down to 1800' and intercept there. Ok, descend to 1800', intercept and
cleared.


That may not be possible. If the MVA is 2000 then 2000 is as low as ATC can
go.

Doug wrote:

What did your CFI tell you to do? Decline ATC's instruction?

*** Actually, he didn't tell me to do anything. He mentioned it after
I had already started down the glideslope. At that point, I was pretty
busy, so I just said "Let's talk about it on the ground".

Then on the ground, it slipped through the slats.

- Jerry Kaidor (
)