Flying Thru Congested Areas

Every so often in the Boston area when I'm flight following with approach
control in class E they'll throw a vector my way, then a minute or two later
say "resume own navigation." Happens maybe one in ten flights. I've always
igured it's just good manners to comply without asking why so long as it
doesn't put you somewhere you don't want to be.

-cwk.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
nk.net...

"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote in message
...

But I am curious about your experience that
you do not get vectored when you are VFR. If I ask for flight following
from center (or approach), I believe I have experienced being vectored
even though I was VFR. Perhaps I recall incorrectly. I wonder if a
controller-type person can enlighten us on the rules about vectoring VFR
traffic under flight following.


ATC separates VFR aircraft in Class B and Class C airspace, in the outer
area associated with Class C airspace, and in TRSAs. In those areas it is
entirely proper for ATC to vector VFR aircraft. Outside of that airspace
VFR aircraft are vectored only by request.

"Colin Kingsbury" wrote in message
ink.net...

Every so often in the Boston area when I'm flight following with approach
control in class E they'll throw a vector my way, then a minute or two
later
say "resume own navigation."


They are wrong to do so.

When I go VFR, I dont get vectored like on an IFR flight plan, but I do get
traffic advisories. thats why your able to just fly over the class B, because
they cant tell you to turn somewhere else like they can if your IFR. Its good to
talk to approach when your flying over their airspace tho just so they can talk
to you if they need to.

"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote:

Jeff, Good advice, thanks. But I am curious about your experience that
you do not get vectored when you are VFR. If I ask for flight following
from center (or approach), I believe I have experienced being vectored
even though I was VFR. Perhaps I recall incorrectly. I wonder if a
controller-type person can enlighten us on the rules about vectoring VFR
traffic under flight following.

-Sami

Jeff wrote:
Hey Sami
If you fly above the class B of those areas (10,000 ft) then you dont have
any problems, I do this when ever I fly to the other side of phoenix,
reason is they always vector me way around their class B, so I got into
the habit of just flying over their class B VFR. Just when your near their
airspace, you call approach and let them know who you are and where your
going so that they know and can advise you of traffic conflicts.
If your IFR then they can vector you around, if your VFR then they wont
vector you, they will vector the IFR traffic around you. Another thing I
got used to doing when flying around the phoenix area, I found oout they
like to send me way down south then turn me up. I dont fly IFR into
phoenix anymore unless I really have to.

"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote:


I am planning a long cross country where I am trying to minmiize the
time the trip will take (while, of course, trying to be as safe as
possible). The shortest route would take me straight over the top of
Detroit and Clevland and Pittsburg (I am flying from Central Wisconsin
to Washington D.C. to be specific). Perhaps this is a no brainer, but
that does not sound like a particularly good route to me, just because
of the congrestion in these spaces. The congestion (a) increases the
likelihood of vectoring delays, and (b) decreases my safety somewhat
because the probability of a collision is somewhat higher (although,
still quite small, I realize).

If I pick a route to the south, I could avoid all of these areas by
about 30 miles, but it adds about 60-70 miles to my trip. Even at 30
miles south, I imagine the congestion will be significant. In fact, a
controller once implied that it is often better to go straight across
the top of a major airport because there are fewer airplanes in
transition there (descending for approach, or climbing for departure).

So, what do you folks suggest? Thanks in advance for you advice.

-Sami
N2057M
Piper Turbo Arrow III

"O. Sami Saydjari" The shortest route would take
me straight over the top of
Detroit and Clevland and Pittsburg (I am flying from Central Wisconsin
to Washington D.C. to be specific).
I'm not familiar with this route but did you do a great circle route *and*
plot the actual great circle route on the chart to determine the
'conflicts'? I assume you are using a GPS to fly and it will follow the
great circle route using direct routing but it is not always obvious what
that line looks like on the chart unless you plot a few points. A fuel or
rest stop can change the entire equation once fuel prices are factored in.
Perhaps this is a no brainer, but
that does not sound like a particularly good route to me, just because
of the congrestion in these spaces. The congestion (a) increases the
likelihood of vectoring delays, and (b) decreases my safety somewhat
because the probability of a collision is somewhat higher (although,
still quite small, I realize).
The big question here is IFR or VFR. IFR you take your chances with regard
to routing. You can influence it but not control it. OTOH, you get more
help in reducing the probablility of a collision. Depending on weather, IFR
may be the only way or the optimal way depending on the weather. Or VFR may
be the way to stay out of the weather. If weather offers a choice, I find
IFR often easier on such flights because of the help in airspace management
(TFRs, Restricted, etc) and I prefer to fly at IFR altitudes with maximum
ATC involvement.
If I pick a route to the south, I could avoid all of these areas by
about 30 miles, but it adds about 60-70 miles to my trip. Even at 30
miles south, I imagine the congestion will be significant. In fact, a
controller once implied that it is often better to go straight across
the top of a major airport because there are fewer airplanes in
transition there (descending for approach, or climbing for departure).

So, what do you folks suggest? Thanks in advance for you advice.

If you are IFR capable, planning a VFR flight, but without a lot of
experience flying such flights, fly IFR and use it as a learn-the-system
experience. That's the only way to really figure out the best way to do
such a flight in the future

Detroit and Clevland and Pittsburg (I am flying from Central Wisconsin
to Washington D.C. to be specific).

I'm not familiar with this route but did you do a great circle route *and*
plot the actual great circle route on the chart to determine the
'conflicts'? I assume you are using a GPS to fly and it will follow the
great circle route using direct routing but it is not always obvious what
that line looks like on the chart unless you plot a few points. A fuel or
rest stop can change the entire equation once fuel prices are factored in.


Well, I used the route planning software available at the duats website.
I picked the low-level victor airway that it recommended....and thats
the one that had the conflicts. How does one directly find the great
circle route during flight planning (I assume my GPS uses great cricle
when it does a direct-to course)? I figured I would be better off on
victor airways as a matter of extra safety, in case my GPS fails...but I
am open to be talked out of that viewpoint.

"O. Sami Saydjari"
I'm not familiar with this route but did you do a great circle route
*and*
plot the actual great circle route on the chart to determine the
'conflicts'? I assume you are using a GPS to fly and it will follow the
great circle route using direct routing but it is not always obvious
what
that line looks like on the chart unless you plot a few points. A fuel
or
rest stop can change the entire equation once fuel prices are factored
in.

Well, I used the route planning software available at the duats website.
I picked the low-level victor airway that it recommended....and thats
the one that had the conflicts. How does one directly find the great
circle route during flight planning (I assume my GPS uses great cricle
when it does a direct-to course)? I figured I would be better off on
victor airways as a matter of extra safety, in case my GPS fails...but I
am open to be talked out of that viewpoint.

I use the AOPA flight planner and I'm not sure what engine it uses for
determining routes. Might be DUATS. In any case, I can select GPS direct
routing which makes a great circle route (or something close) or I can
select low level victor airway routing. If you are using a GPS for
navigation, there's little reason to take the victor routing unless ATC
'demands' it as they tend to do around the Wash DC area for example. I
assume your duats flight planner will plan a direct route and supply
waypoints that can be plotted so that you can see what it looks like on a
chart.

Map projections do not result in the shortest real distance between 2 points
being a straight line on the chart. Sometimes the difference is enough to
be surprising. For example, when I fly to Florida from the Raleigh area, I
have to fly around a sizeable restricted area near Fayetteville. The map
tells me to fly east of the area. A more careful examination of the great
circle route tells me to fly west. The difference is not that great but it
causes me to choose a different refueling stop for my slow, short legged
bird.

I use duats also to get a general idea of time and winds aloft and to pick my
best altitude. I always select the user selected way points so I can do a
direct. Their direct uses waypoints, I dont care much about way points. When I
file I call FSS. If I am going to be in IMC I will use the airways, if not, then
I go direct.

If your not familiar with the area, and you expect bad weather, I would use the
airways. If the weather was good and I wanted to cut time, I would go direct or
a combination of the two, depending on weather and terrain.

"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote:\Well, I used the route planning software available at
the duats website.

I picked the low-level victor airway that it recommended....and thats
the one that had the conflicts. How does one directly find the great
circle route during flight planning (I assume my GPS uses great cricle
when it does a direct-to course)? I figured I would be better off on
victor airways as a matter of extra safety, in case my GPS fails...but I
am open to be talked out of that viewpoint.

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
I use duats also to get a general idea of time and winds aloft and to pick
my
best altitude. I always select the user selected way points so I can do a
direct. Their direct uses waypoints, I dont care much about way points.
When I
file I call FSS. If I am going to be in IMC I will use the airways, if
not, then
I go direct.

If your not familiar with the area, and you expect bad weather, I would
use the
airways. If the weather was good and I wanted to cut time, I would go
direct or
a combination of the two, depending on weather and terrain.

Why does the weather affect whether you go direct?

Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

because if its going to be bad I like being on a route flown by other aircraft
just in case something happens.
I live in the desert, If you go down there is not alot of places to land, so if
it has to happen, I want to be where people can easily find me. Plus with all
the mountains I like to follow the charts and the MEA's just to be safe. There
is no guessing when it comes to following the airways, its all laid out for you.
Another benefit is radar coverage, there are places out here where you dont get
radar coverage. You follow the airways, your good to go.

John Clonts wrote:

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
I use duats also to get a general idea of time and winds aloft and to pick
my
best altitude. I always select the user selected way points so I can do a
direct. Their direct uses waypoints, I dont care much about way points.
When I
file I call FSS. If I am going to be in IMC I will use the airways, if
not, then
I go direct.

If your not familiar with the area, and you expect bad weather, I would
use the
airways. If the weather was good and I wanted to cut time, I would go
direct or
a combination of the two, depending on weather and terrain.

Why does the weather affect whether you go direct?

Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote in message ...
Well, I used the route planning software available at the duats website.
I picked the low-level victor airway that it recommended....and thats
the one that had the conflicts.

Sami,

While I use DUATS once my route is planned, the victor routing
options of Flight Planner aren't always the best airway routing.
They may send you to VORs or intersections which add miles to
your trip or keep you on airways when a direct VOR segment or
two would shorten it.

To get great circle routing which is easy to put on a chart
out of DUATS, select the "direct routing for GPS/Loran".

I recommend purchasing a "low altitude enroute planning chart"
(or something like that) from your favorite chart shop. You
can sanity check any routing and easily see where picking a
fuel stop a bit off to the west would add little but steer
you clear, or where going direct between VORs would make a
shorter route. It's also a great aid for any replanning
which might be necessary enroute due to weather.

In truth, for longer trips, we file VOR routing (not necessarily
airways) more and more often, because with judicious use of
direct segments it usually adds very little (maybe 1%) to the
trip and makes filing flight plans easier.

Cheers,
Sydney