Grass Strips, Landing Technique, etc.

Dylan Smith wrote:

The other instructor said, "First solo? Off a GRASS runway? Is it
SAFE!?" with a tone of isn't-that-irresponsible...

A firm grass runway for a tailwheel plane is much safer than paved -
it's a lot more forgiving of slight crab angles on touchdown.

Yes, methinks we need to give our instructors better instruction! :-)

Matt

john smith wrote:

In article ,
T o d d P a t t i s t wrote:


john smith wrote:


If it is on the Sectional and has an R in a circle, one had better have
permission. If it is not on the Sectional, again, you had better have
permission.

I've landed at lots of those "R in a circle" airports, never
with permission (unless it was the second time), and always
got a nice reception. Of course, I always landed without an
engine, and only because it was land there or land in a
farmer's field.


There are examples in US case law where aircraft owners who have landed
at private airfields without permission have had to pay large sums of
money to the property owner to recover their aircraft, disassemble it
and truck it out.

Isn't that how they normally remove gliders? :-)

Matt

john smith wrote:
There are examples in US case law where aircraft owners who have landed
at private airfields without permission have had to pay large sums of
money to the property owner to recover their aircraft, disassemble it
and truck it out.

Matt Whiting wrote:
Isn't that how they normally remove gliders? :-)

Depends. If the tow plane can come in and tow them back up and out,
that's the preferred way (cost to the glider pilot? significant); if
their location is such that the tow plane cannot tow them back out, a
crew disassembles the glider and trailers it out (cost to the glider
pilot? an arm and a leg). I've never heard of paying "large sums of
money to the property owner" to recover the glider ... other than
reimbursing for damage caused during the landing. In all the off-field
landing stories I've heard, property owners are generally pretty nice,
and recovery crews have been known to find the pilot and the farmer
sharing a beer.

wrote in message
...
john smith wrote:
There are examples in US case law where aircraft owners who have landed
at private airfields without permission have had to pay large sums of
money to the property owner to recover their aircraft, disassemble it
and truck it out.

Matt Whiting wrote:
Isn't that how they normally remove gliders? :-)

Depends. If the tow plane can come in and tow them back up and out,
that's the preferred way (cost to the glider pilot? significant)

Not really, if the distance is not great.

; if
their location is such that the tow plane cannot tow them back out, a
crew disassembles the glider and trailers it out (cost to the glider
pilot? an arm and a leg).

No, usually a couple of the pilots friends hook up the trailer and go out
and get him/her. Never know the next time it could be, and probably will
be, one of them.

I've never heard of paying "large sums of
money to the property owner" to recover the glider ... other than
reimbursing for damage caused during the landing. In all the off-field
landing stories I've heard, property owners are generally pretty nice,
and recovery crews have been known to find the pilot and the farmer
sharing a beer.

Matt Whiting wrote:
Isn't that how they normally remove gliders? :-)

XMnushaL8y:
Depends. If the tow plane can come in and tow them back up and out,
that's the preferred way (cost to the glider pilot? significant)

"Dave Stadt" wrote:
Not really, if the distance is not great.

Well, maybe "significant" is relative. Most don't land out if they
haven't ventured too far in the first place.

if their location is such that the tow plane cannot tow them back out, a
crew disassembles the glider and trailers it out (cost to the glider
pilot? an arm and a leg).

No, usually a couple of the pilots friends hook up the trailer and go out
and get him/her. Never know the next time it could be, and probably will
be, one of them.

Depends where you fly and who owns the glider. The pilot doesn't always
own the glider, the pilot doesn't always bring all his friends every
time he flies (sometimes it's just the crew at the gliderport), the
gliderport doesn't close up at night until everyone is back, and the
business generally wants to handle retrieval of their own gliders if
disassembly and trailering is required.

We've had several club members damage aircraft on grass. In all cases, the
damage occurred during and unexpected pavement-to-grass transition. :-(

Dylan Smith wrote:


The other instructor said, "First solo? Off a GRASS runway? Is it
SAFE!?" with a tone of isn't-that-irresponsible...

A firm grass runway for a tailwheel plane is much safer than paved -
it's a lot more forgiving of slight crab angles on touchdown.


AMEN Dylan...

Don Cooper solo'd me at Wolfe.. a field he knew well.. Again.. a well
maintained grass runway is a NON event..

To all the other naysayers and nit pickers, its not like im advocating
setting down in a pasture dodging cows and ant-hills, or on a beach.. or
on an unmaintained back-country gravel road.. I'm talking about a well
constructed and maintained grass runway at a FAA registered airport..

It's actually kind of sad, dylan, the instructor's comments that you
have on tape... He was likely the latest in a generation of flight
instructors who have never operated off grass, trained by someone who
had never flown off of grass, and likely never in a tailwheel either.

It's a shame.
Dave

Dave S wrote:

Again.. a well
maintained grass runway is a NON event..

glad to read this :-) I first used a paved runway after I
got my private certificate (thought it was actually trickier
than a grass field); why all the fuss?

--Sylvain

Dave S wrote:

To all the other naysayers and nit pickers, its not like im advocating
setting down in a pasture dodging cows and ant-hills, or on a beach.. or
on an unmaintained back-country gravel road.. I'm talking about a well
constructed and maintained grass runway at a FAA registered airport..

It's actually kind of sad, dylan, the instructor's comments that you
have on tape... He was likely the latest in a generation of flight
instructors who have never operated off grass, trained by someone who
had never flown off of grass, and likely never in a tailwheel either.

It's a shame.
Dave

Agreed. I've flown with a few of these "new" instructors and it is
really sad how little they really know about the full range of flying.

I flew once circuit years ago in a Tomahawk with a young CFI who had
heard too many Traumahawk stories. He had me not rotate until 70 knots
and maintain 90 all the way around the pattern until nearly touchdown.
He was absolutely paranoid about stalling it.

After one circuit I politely told him that his style wasn't working for
me and we called it a day.

Matt

unicate schrieb:

Depends where you fly and who owns the glider. The pilot doesn't always
own the glider, the pilot doesn't always bring all his friends every
time he flies (sometimes it's just the crew at the gliderport), the
gliderport doesn't close up at night until everyone is back, and the
business generally wants to handle retrieval of their own gliders if
disassembly and trailering is required.

Where I live and fly, glider clubs work that way: I retrieve you, and
you retrieve me, and nobody leaves until it's clear that everybody has
landed safely. But maybe such things work differently in the USA.

Stefan