Hand propping - licensed pilot at the controls?

On 8 Jul 2006 19:39:38 -0700, "Stache"
wrote:

I was trying to explain a situation where a person hand propping could
possible get into a situation where someone may take a second look at
you because you did something stupid. So you use a non-certificated
person to help and something goes wrong who is the pilot in command?

Since I fly a J-3, almost always fly alone, and soon found that it was
very difficult to find someone at another field to prop the plane,
propping very early became an issue with me. I had a talk with my
former instructor on the subject, and his advice was: "There are all
sorts of reasons why you don't want this to become an issue."

Solo propping is forbidden at the airfield where I rent the Cub,
especially (as I discovered) when in full view of the cafe deck in
high summer. I haven't had such a tongue-lashing since I left home in
1950. Other airfield managers don't seem to care.

I don't like to have a stranger sitting in the cockpit, so if there's
no one around who claims to know how to prop, I use two chocks on a
line that I can reel into the cockpit once I'm aboard. I also tie down
the tail if that's possible; it usually is. In a pinch I'll ask a
strong man to hold the tail.

The Cub will start at closed throttle when the engine is warm. I put
my left foot on the starboard chock, hold the window frame with my
left hand, and swing the prop with the right, getting a little bounce
out of it first on those impulse thingies, whatever they might be. It
starts the first time, almost every time.

I wait a few seconds to ensure that all is copacetic, then gingerly
duck under the struts, walk to the rear to untie the rope if any, then
very gingerly climb into the rear seat. Once strapped in, I give the
chocks a tug to free them, then reel them in and stow them in my pack
in the front seat.

It is all second nature now; I've been doing it for six years.



-- all the best, Dan Ford

email: usenet AT danford DOT net

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com

On the Taylorcraft, I used chocks but never trusted them and kept a
long rope in the plane for tying down the tail in case there were no
convenient tie-down chains.

Swinging the prop properly from the front means you wind up starboard
of the propeller arc and in a position to catch a strut if necessary.
As a practical matter, the T-cart did not develop much thrust at idle.
Even on tarmac, it wouldn't roll.

In 35+ years of flying, I've known four pilots I trusted/would have
trusted to do the cockpit chores while I did the outside stuff. If
somebody wanted to help, I'd have them lean against the tail.

Never tried it on an engine bigger than 65 HP, though I've done the
inside chores a couple of times on a 172 (O-300) while an 80-year old
ATP swung the prop.

Don

In article ,
Don Tuite wrote:

Never tried it on an engine bigger than 65 HP, though I've done the
inside chores a couple of times on a 172 (O-300) while an 80-year old
ATP swung the prop.

I will not prop a tricycle gear airplane unless it is an emergency or
very urgent situation. Maybe tie the tail down to raise the nose.
I watched an 80-something prop a Stearman. Multi-attempts before it
caught. He was drenched in sweat and tuckered out.

On Fri, 14 Jul 2006 18:30:11 GMT, john smith wrote:

In article ,
Don Tuite wrote:

Never tried it on an engine bigger than 65 HP, though I've done the
inside chores a couple of times on a 172 (O-300) while an 80-year old
ATP swung the prop.

I will not prop a tricycle gear airplane unless it is an emergency or
very urgent situation. Maybe tie the tail down to raise the nose.
I watched an 80-something prop a Stearman. Multi-attempts before it
caught. He was drenched in sweat and tuckered out.

Maybe we could make this an event in the Geezer Olympics.

Start with lawnmowers and let 'em work their way up to P47s.

Don

Some engines just are not safe to hand prop. The IO 520 on
the Beech Bonanza uses the Shower of Sparks ignition to get
a retarded timing and it uses battery power through a coil
and vibrating points to get the shower of sparks. But that
means the battery has to be charged and the key held in they
start position while YOU walk up to a live prop and pull it
through compression. The engine needs to have functioning
impulse couplings or some other "safe" method to alter the
timing for starting.

Airplanes used for banner/glider tow can use the QR hook to
secure the plane to a chain or rope and then the pilot can
release the tie down from the cockpit.

Even better, keep the battery charged and the starter
working.



--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"john smith" wrote in message
...
| In article ,
| Don Tuite wrote:
|
| Never tried it on an engine bigger than 65 HP, though
I've done the
| inside chores a couple of times on a 172 (O-300) while
an 80-year old
| ATP swung the prop.
|
| I will not prop a tricycle gear airplane unless it is an
emergency or
| very urgent situation. Maybe tie the tail down to raise
the nose.
| I watched an 80-something prop a Stearman. Multi-attempts
before it
| caught. He was drenched in sweat and tuckered out.

As I vaguely remember, the older E-series engines on the bo used impulse
mags, but I could be wrong. I don't do retracts, so this is from ancient
memory.

Jim



"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
news:qaStg.67773$ZW3.2136@dukeread04...
Some engines just are not safe to hand prop. The IO 520 on
the Beech Bonanza uses the Shower of Sparks ignition to get
a retarded timing and it uses battery power through a coil
and vibrating points to get the shower of sparks.

They used different magnetos at different times, I just
remember SN E-22 [an early BE 36, before the A] had Shower
of Sparks and a pilot tried to prop it. He didn't get hurt,
but it didn't start either.

I general, airplanes with starters are not setup to be hand
propped, the prop is indexed differently on the crank and
the magnetos have the impulse coupling.

Jim
"RST Engineering" wrote in message
...
| As I vaguely remember, the older E-series engines on the
bo used impulse
| mags, but I could be wrong. I don't do retracts, so this
is from ancient
| memory.
|
| Jim
|
|
|
| "Jim Macklin" wrote
in message
| news:qaStg.67773$ZW3.2136@dukeread04...
| Some engines just are not safe to hand prop. The IO 520
on
| the Beech Bonanza uses the Shower of Sparks ignition to
get
| a retarded timing and it uses battery power through a
coil
| and vibrating points to get the shower of sparks.
|
|

"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
news:zSVtg.68471$ZW3.23809@dukeread04...
They used different magnetos at different times, I just
remember SN E-22 [an early BE 36, before the A] had Shower
of Sparks and a pilot tried to prop it. He didn't get hurt,
but it didn't start either.

I general, airplanes with starters are not setup to be hand
propped, the prop is indexed differently on the crank and
the magnetos have the impulse coupling.

Jim

Engines with mags with impulse couplings hand prop just fine. In fact those
without impulse couplings can be a pain to hand prop.


"RST Engineering" wrote in message
...
| As I vaguely remember, the older E-series engines on the
bo used impulse
| mags, but I could be wrong. I don't do retracts, so this
is from ancient
| memory.
|
| Jim
|
|
|
| "Jim Macklin" wrote
in message
| news:qaStg.67773$ZW3.2136@dukeread04...
| Some engines just are not safe to hand prop. The IO 520
on
| the Beech Bonanza uses the Shower of Sparks ignition to
get
| a retarded timing and it uses battery power through a
coil
| and vibrating points to get the shower of sparks.
|
|

I phrased my answer poorly. The impulse coupling makes hand
propping easier and safer. Impulse couplers cause a
retarded spark and the spring snaps the magneto to a
momentary higher speed increasing spark strength. Impulse
couplings are used as the method to get a retarded spark for
starting, whether used with or without a starter.

But an engine without a starter has the prop indexed so that
hand propping is safer.


"Dave Stadt" wrote in message
.net...
|
| "Jim Macklin" wrote
in message
| news:zSVtg.68471$ZW3.23809@dukeread04...
| They used different magnetos at different times, I just
| remember SN E-22 [an early BE 36, before the A] had
Shower
| of Sparks and a pilot tried to prop it. He didn't get
hurt,
| but it didn't start either.
|
| I general, airplanes with starters are not setup to be
hand
| propped, the prop is indexed differently on the crank
and
| the magnetos have the impulse coupling.
|
| Jim
|
| Engines with mags with impulse couplings hand prop just
fine. In fact those
| without impulse couplings can be a pain to hand prop.
|
|
| "RST Engineering" wrote in
message
| ...
| | As I vaguely remember, the older E-series engines on
the
| bo used impulse
| | mags, but I could be wrong. I don't do retracts, so
this
| is from ancient
| | memory.
| |
| | Jim
| |
| |
| |
| | "Jim Macklin"
wrote
| in message
| | news:qaStg.67773$ZW3.2136@dukeread04...
| | Some engines just are not safe to hand prop. The IO
520
| on
| | the Beech Bonanza uses the Shower of Sparks ignition
to
| get
| | a retarded timing and it uses battery power through
a
| coil
| | and vibrating points to get the shower of sparks.
| |
| |
|
|
|
|

TRA wrote:
Is there an FAR or other document (Advisory Circular etc.)
that addresses whether a licensed pilot must be at the
controls ofthe aircraft being started when it is hand
propped? I know the FAA may hit the pilot with careless and
reckless if it gets away, but is it legal to tie the tail
down and start solo, particularly when getting gas at a new
airport? There just aren't that many lineboys or other
pilots who are familiar with hand propping,

There is no FAA regulation requiring it, but a surprising number of
local laws require that a licensed pilot be at the controls. There was
a pilot at Boeing Field in Seattle who got ticketed for it a couple
years ago. Also, any airport can have its own rules regarding the
matter, just as they can have rules prohibiting the starting of engines
in hangars, minimum insurance requirements, etc.