23 July OSH accident audio

RST Engineering wrote:
Just for my nosiness, why are we calling Fisk Fiske now?

Because ir rhyhms with risky? :-)

Matt

"RST Engineering" wrote in message
...

That may well be, but Fisk has strobes, controllers under a beach
umbrella, railroad tracks, and grass. You proceed from Ripon to Fisk, not
from RIPON to FISKE.


Well, since RIPON is at Ripon, and FISKE is at Fisk, you cannot avoid doing
both.

Would you care to bet a whole bunch of paper with old dead mens' pictures on
them that FISKE is not directly over the aforementioned beach umbrella?

Jim



"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
k.net...

"RST Engineering" wrote in message
...

That may well be, but Fisk has strobes, controllers under a beach
umbrella, railroad tracks, and grass. You proceed from Ripon to Fisk,
not from RIPON to FISKE.


Well, since RIPON is at Ripon, and FISKE is at Fisk, you cannot avoid
doing both.

I beg to differ. Most pilots read about accidents as events that happen
in extreme circumstances or in far away places. A recording adds a
sense of familiarity and brings it much closer to home. We learn more
about our own vulnerabilities by identifying with the pilot and the
circumstances. I see nothing wrong with an audio recording unless it
has circumstances inappropriate or disrespectful of the deceased (ie
expletive language etc..). I don't see it as media sensationalization.
It is the real ATC recording with no commentaries or commercials. I
doubt a nonpilot would be able to make much sense out of the
recordings.





Bob Gardner wrote:
Reading about accidents helps pilots avoid the mistakes of others; seeing or
hearing accidents doesn't help anyone. How can we complain about media
sensationalizing airplane accidents when we have folks like John Smith doing
the same thing?

Bob Gardner

"john smith" wrote in message
...
00:01:15 minutes into the playback is when the accident occurred on 23
July

http://www.liveatc.net/.archive/kosh...2006-1330Z.mp3

John,

What you hear is how the FAA failed to share information with the pilots
via ATIS and the FISKE controllers.


They say loud and clear that the runway is closed, and later that the
airport is closed. What more do you need? It's not a news channel, it's
ATC.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

"RST Engineering" wrote in message
news

Would you care to bet a whole bunch of paper with old dead mens' pictures
on them that FISKE is not directly over the aforementioned beach umbrella?


Do you proceed from Ripon to Fisk, or do you proceed from Ripon to beach
umbrella?

"Thomas Borchert" wrote in message
...

They say loud and clear that the runway is closed, and later that the
airport is closed. What more do you need?


The reason for the closure.

Steven,

They say loud and clear that the runway is closed, and later that the
airport is closed. What more do you need?


The reason for the closure.


Yeah, but why? What does that do for the orderly flow of traffic, which
is ATCs job in that case - and I bet they were more than busy.

I can see that it might be smart to tell the reason for "crowd control"
reasons, but IMHO one has to acknowledge that it is not really part of
the job description. Also, I bet that many pilots would then start asking
the specifics, which would only further deteriorate the situation.

I just thought they handled it really professionally.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

"Thomas Borchert" wrote in message
...

Yeah, but why? What does that do for the orderly flow of traffic, which
is ATCs job in that case - and I bet they were more than busy.

I can see that it might be smart to tell the reason for "crowd control"
reasons, but IMHO one has to acknowledge that it is not really part of
the job description. Also, I bet that many pilots would then start asking
the specifics, which would only further deteriorate the situation.

I just thought they handled it really professionally.


When aircraft are instructed to hold they're supposed to be issued a time
when they can proceed beyond the holding point. ATC obviously couldn't know
how long the airport would be closed, but they did know why it was closed
and issuing that information would have given pilots an idea how long the
delay would be. Really professional controllers do these things not just
because they're required, but also because it's good procedure.



FAA Order 7110.65R Air Traffic Control

Chapter 7. Visual

Section 1. General


7-1-4. VISUAL HOLDING OF VFR AIRCRAFT

TERMINAL

When it becomes necessary to hold VFR aircraft at visual holding fixes, take
the following actions:

a. Clear aircraft to hold at selected, prominent geographical fixes which
can be easily recognized from the air, preferably those depicted on
sectional charts.

NOTE-
At some locations, VFR checkpoints are depicted on Sectional Aeronautical
and Terminal Area Charts. In selecting geographical fixes, depicted VFR
checkpoints are preferred unless the pilot exhibits a familiarity with the
local area.

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Visual Holding Points, Para 4-6-5.

b. Issue traffic information to aircraft cleared to hold at the same fix.

PHRASEOLOGY-
HOLD AT (location) UNTIL (time or other condition),

TRAFFIC (description) HOLDING AT (fix, altitude if known),

or

PROCEEDING TO (fix) FROM (direction or fix).

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Holding, Para 7-6-5.

Steven,

When aircraft are instructed to hold they're supposed to be issued a time
when they can proceed beyond the holding point. ATC obviously couldn't know
how long the airport would be closed, but they did know why it was closed
and issuing that information would have given pilots an idea how long the
delay would be.

So the pilots would have known what the controllers didn't? How?

Really professional controllers do these things not just
because they're required, but also because it's good procedure.

To imply that the OSH controllers are anything but professional is ridiculous.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)