Glider Crash - Minden?

Ramy wrote:
Derek, I am not advocating mode S transponder (which I couldn't efford
one either ), it is doing nothing to improve safety then mode C,which
should cost around 2K in the US, no more then a flight computer.

Double that figure, and you'll have a more typical installed cost in the
US, particularly in a type certified glider. A transponder installation
is a different kettle of fish from a glide computer, a 337 is often
required...

Ramy wrote:
Meanwhile, at least in the US, our only option is the 30 years
old technology of transponders, which are relatively effordable for
most pilots I see flying at the Reno area.

Ramy, what if the collision had been between an older Learjet, not
equipped with TCAS, and not talking to ATC (in the process of being
handed off, talking to FSS, or just tooling around VFR. Transponders
would be totally useless in preventing the midair.

Remember, unless equipped with TCAS (big jets) or an IFF interrogator
(many military fighters), or talking to the controlling agency that is
actually watching you and your transponder, it's not going to do any
good. It is absolutely no good at preventing VFR - VFR midairs.

TPAS is a good solution, since it warns you of someone else tooling
around with his xponder on. ADS-B would be nice, if
affordable/practicable in a glider. FLARM is pretty much only
glider-to-glider, and requires active participation (and is a moot
point in the US anyway, at present).

If I was going to get up in the flight levels with my glider (no
thanks, I happen to like my old gelcoat, thankyou!) I would seriously
consider a transponder. Also an attitude indicator!. Down lower, if
traffic is an issue, then I'm leaning towards some kind of TPAS - like
device. I'm waiting for one with a good aural cue (I think there is
one out now). Any comments from current TPAS users out there?

Kirk
66

Kirk, I happen to be also a TPAS user. I am using the Monroy, which
gives you warning for nearby transponder equipped aircraft. All it does
actually is alerting you to scan for traffic when there is traffic
nearby. It doesn't tell you where it is though, but for $500 I think it
worth it. There is now a better unit offered on Wings and Wheels
http://www.wingsandwheels.com/page4.htm
Installation is not much of an issue, since those units are so small
you can stick them to the glare shield as I do. Just make sure to buy
one with voice alerts as you noted, as you would not notice the leds
during day time when your eyes are focused outside.

Ramy


kirk.stant wrote:
Ramy wrote:
Meanwhile, at least in the US, our only option is the 30 years
old technology of transponders, which are relatively effordable for
most pilots I see flying at the Reno area.

Ramy, what if the collision had been between an older Learjet, not
equipped with TCAS, and not talking to ATC (in the process of being
handed off, talking to FSS, or just tooling around VFR. Transponders
would be totally useless in preventing the midair.

Remember, unless equipped with TCAS (big jets) or an IFF interrogator
(many military fighters), or talking to the controlling agency that is
actually watching you and your transponder, it's not going to do any
good. It is absolutely no good at preventing VFR - VFR midairs.

TPAS is a good solution, since it warns you of someone else tooling
around with his xponder on. ADS-B would be nice, if
affordable/practicable in a glider. FLARM is pretty much only
glider-to-glider, and requires active participation (and is a moot
point in the US anyway, at present).

If I was going to get up in the flight levels with my glider (no
thanks, I happen to like my old gelcoat, thankyou!) I would seriously
consider a transponder. Also an attitude indicator!. Down lower, if
traffic is an issue, then I'm leaning towards some kind of TPAS - like
device. I'm waiting for one with a good aural cue (I think there is
one out now). Any comments from current TPAS users out there?

Kirk
66

kirk.stant wrote:
Ramy wrote:
Meanwhile, at least in the US, our only option is the 30 years
old technology of transponders, which are relatively effordable for
most pilots I see flying at the Reno area.

Ramy, what if the collision had been between an older Learjet, not
equipped with TCAS, and not talking to ATC (in the process of being
handed off, talking to FSS, or just tooling around VFR.

Do they actually do that? And why would they want to, as long as they
had radar coverage? I'm having a hard time imagining a professional jet
pilot flying around at 300 knots that wouldn't want to be talking to
ATC, especially with passengers.

I'm not questioning your advice on TPAS units, just wondering how likely
your scenario is. The TPAS units would also work with the average
Cessna, which is certainly doesn't have TCAS, and even more likely to be
without ATC contact.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

www.motorglider.org - Download "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane
Operation"

I've just started flying with a Mode C transponder and have been
alerted a couple of times of approaching traffic when it started
replying to frequent interrogations. I was able to locate these
aircraft visually. Clearly an alert system would be an inexpensive and
valuable asset.

Having the right of way in a glider is about as useful as having right
of way in a sailboat when you're about to be run over by a mega
container ship (which has also happened to me). Large aircraft (and
vessels) just might not see you and, even if they do, can't avoid you
becasue of their mass and speed. I'd just like to steer clear of
conflict, which includes alerting others to my presence and learning
about theirs.

Good grief, there are still folks in the USA (including some well-known
glider FBOs) that fly without radios, let alone transponders.

Mike

Flarm is, Flarm to Flarm. Up to now it is mainly fitted to gliders,
practically universal in the European Alps, and widely fitted in Australia.
In the Swiss Alps it is also fitted to rescue helicopters, partly because of
its obstacle database.

ADS-B out can be read by ADS-B in.

In Australia they are working on the idea that an enhancement to ADS-B
could enable it to read Flarm, and an enhancement to Flarm could enable it
to read ADS-B.

This is why things may improve when Mode A/C and Mode S are phased out in
favour of ADS-B.

In Australia Flarm is built under licence (OzFlarm), there are other
licensees. Is there nobody interested in doing this in the USA ? It
would surely be ideal for any light aircraft. I understand that there is
an add-on to Flarm which can sound a signal in headphones.

Remember, Modes A/C and S are only transmitted when the Transponder is
triggered by an interrogation. Flarm and ADS-B transmit regularly without
having to be triggered.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.


"kirk.stant" wrote in message
ups.com...


Ramy wrote:
Meanwhile, at least in the US, our only option is the 30 years
old technology of transponders, which are relatively affordable for
most pilots I see flying at the Reno area.


snip

TPAS is a good solution, since it warns you of someone else tooling
around with his xponder on. ADS-B would be nice, if
affordable/practicable in a glider. FLARM is pretty much only
glider-to-glider, and requires active participation (and is a moot
point in the US anyway, at present).

snip

Kirk
66

Are there any low cost ADS-B units available?

Mike Schumann

"W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.)." wrote in message
...
Flarm is, Flarm to Flarm. Up to now it is mainly fitted to gliders,
practically universal in the European Alps, and widely fitted in
Australia.
In the Swiss Alps it is also fitted to rescue helicopters, partly because
of
its obstacle database.

ADS-B out can be read by ADS-B in.

In Australia they are working on the idea that an enhancement to ADS-B
could enable it to read Flarm, and an enhancement to Flarm could enable it
to read ADS-B.

This is why things may improve when Mode A/C and Mode S are phased out in
favour of ADS-B.

In Australia Flarm is built under licence (OzFlarm), there are other
licensees. Is there nobody interested in doing this in the USA ? It
would surely be ideal for any light aircraft. I understand that there is
an add-on to Flarm which can sound a signal in headphones.

Remember, Modes A/C and S are only transmitted when the Transponder is
triggered by an interrogation. Flarm and ADS-B transmit regularly
without
having to be triggered.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.


"kirk.stant" wrote in message
ups.com...


Ramy wrote:
Meanwhile, at least in the US, our only option is the 30 years
old technology of transponders, which are relatively affordable for
most pilots I see flying at the Reno area.


snip

TPAS is a good solution, since it warns you of someone else tooling
around with his xponder on. ADS-B would be nice, if
affordable/practicable in a glider. FLARM is pretty much only
glider-to-glider, and requires active participation (and is a moot
point in the US anyway, at present).

snip

Kirk
66

http://iagblog.blogspot.com/2006/08/...t-miracle.html


One picture=1,000 words

Hmm, the glider is thermalling - probably the easiest thing in the air
to see from another aircraft approaching.

So much for professional pilots looking out the window.

If the glider had been cruising I could understand it. I've lost
gliders I've been following when I knew where they were. But there is
little excuse in a two-crew cockpit to miss something as substantial as
an 18 meter glider thermalling in front of you!

In the AF we called it clearing your flightpath. Everything else is
secondary at jet speeds.

Good job getting the jet and it's valuable pax back unharmed. Love the
pic of the glider spar in the radome! But I would love to hear the
crew admit they were heads-down at the time of the collision, if that
is what really happened.

Of course, I could be totally wrong - sun, bugs on the canopy, etc...
And this assumes the glider was actually turning, of course.

Well, it's better than trying to take off on the wrong runway,
anyway...

Check 6, guys! (and 9, and 3, and 12, and...)

Kirk
66

kirk.stant wrote:
Hmm, the glider is thermalling - probably the easiest thing in the air
to see from another aircraft approaching.

So much for professional pilots looking out the window.

If the glider had been cruising I could understand it. I've lost
gliders I've been following when I knew where they were. But there is
little excuse in a two-crew cockpit to miss something as substantial as
an 18 meter glider thermalling in front of you!

A thermalling glider should be able to see approaching aircraft more
easily, too. Quite different from being run down by a faster aircraft
coming up behind. We probably shouldn't be too smug at this point, until
we know the facts for sure.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

www.motorglider.org - Download "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane
Operation"