Midair near Minden

Ray: I like this. I have briefing pilots going north to call RNO
approach even though they plan to stay above the top of the Class C.
I think I'll recommend more conversation with RNO approach, even if
we're not heading north. Fred

My personal feeling is that everyone should have a transponder. The focus
needs to be on reducing the cost and size of transponders so it's not as
much of an economic issue.

Mike Schumann

"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
news:aI7Jg.7666$4O4.7017@trnddc02...
wrote:

The typical knee jerk reaction is to shout "transponders for all" is
not the solution.
Plus it would need to be implemented on a national scale..

It wouldn't have to implemented nationally to be beneficial. High use
areas like Minden would be the place to start because it would reduce the
risk the most, and the glider pilots that fly there could install
transponders without the FAA requiring it. The FAA could deal with it
using the "veil" concept like the Class B areas have, but not exempt
anyone. In this case, it'd take a 45 nm veil to include the collision
point; however, the veil wouldn't have to be circular.

Hands up who has the panel space and budget right now for a
Transponder?

I'm sure both the owner and pilot of the ASG 29 could have easily found
both. That still leaves a lot/some pilots at Minden that would choke on
the $2500-$4000 it would take to install one, but EVERYONE can afford a
TPAS type unit at $500-$1500 (and no installation or testing costs). I
can't say it would have prevented this accident, but people that use them
seem to be quite pleased.

Several years ago, I decided I wouldn't fly at Minden anymore until I had
a transponder. Seeing airliners close enough to recognize the airline
persuaded me it was worth the money, even though I don't fly there very
often. I've jad one for several years now, and decided it's a good value
even in the lower density traffic of the Pacific Northwest where I fly
most of the time.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

www.motorglider.org - Download "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane
Operation"

Why in the world would you leave a transponder off if you have the luxury of
having one????

Mike Schumann

"Ramy Yanetz" wrote in message
...
Fred,

Thanks for your thoughts.
You first wrote:
The ASG 29 was transponder equipped. I did not find out yet if it was
turned on or off. If it was turned off, that might be bad news for
Hirao.
Then you wrote:
I know, he should have had
it turned on and everything else. For some reason he did not.

So did he or did he not turn on the transponder?
I suspect this confirms my finding (using TPAS) that many transponder
equipped gliders are not turned on or turned off after some time from
various reasons.

Ramy

On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 13:57:47 GMT, "Mike Schumann"
wrote:

Why in the world would you leave a transponder off if you have the luxury of
having one????

Mike Schumann

"Ramy Yanetz" wrote in message
t...
Fred,

Thanks for your thoughts.
You first wrote:
The ASG 29 was transponder equipped. I did not find out yet if it was
turned on or off. If it was turned off, that might be bad news for
Hirao.
Then you wrote:
I know, he should have had
it turned on and everything else. For some reason he did not.

So did he or did he not turn on the transponder?
I suspect this confirms my finding (using TPAS) that many transponder
equipped gliders are not turned on or turned off after some time from
various reasons.

Ramy

Transponder operation is mandatory, if an operable one is installed.

See FAR 91.215 (c)

Ray Lovinggood wrote:
Doug,

You don't have to have a transponder to get the controllers
to know you are there. True, I'm not talking 'Flight
Following' but more like 'Flight Awareness.'

On occassions, I have called the local controllers
for the Class C airport (RDU) and let them know I was
there and was monitoring their frequency. They would
first reply to 'Squak' such and such and I would tell
them I didn't have a transponder. They would then
find me on radar. Ok, maybe they aren't as busy as
some other locations, but at least I make them aware
that I'm out there. Occassionaly, they might call
up and ask how I'm doing, and just being friendly.

Chinook approach near our local airliner airport (PSC) responds the same
way. The non-transponder equipped gliders often call them shortly after
take-off, and they usually spot everyone until we leave on course. I
assume Approach could be alerted at other airliner airports, too, and I
think some of the guys do that, too.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

www.motorglider.org - Download "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane
Operation"

Doug Haluza wrote:
Most ATC sections filter out 1200
VFR codes, and only view aircraft with discrete codes. So in this case,
even if the glider's transponder was on, there is no guarantee that the
controller even saw it, much less gave a traffic warning--they are not
required to warn IFR aircraft of VFR targets anyway.

Whoa! Really? Isn't that the point of requiring all airplanes to carry
transponders? What I've heard from multiple sources is the only places
the VFR code is filtered out are areas with VERY heavy traffic (and
where VFR traffic is confined), like over Los Angeles. Knowledgeable
people that fly in the Minden area and discuss things with ATC there
have never suggested that Reno is filtering out VFR codes!

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

www.motorglider.org - Download "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane
Operation"

Eric Greenwell wrote:
Doug Haluza wrote:
Most ATC sections filter out 1200
VFR codes, and only view aircraft with discrete codes. So in this case,
even if the glider's transponder was on, there is no guarantee that the
controller even saw it, much less gave a traffic warning--they are not
required to warn IFR aircraft of VFR targets anyway.

Whoa! Really? Isn't that the point of requiring all airplanes to carry
transponders? What I've heard from multiple sources is the only places
the VFR code is filtered out are areas with VERY heavy traffic (and
where VFR traffic is confined), like over Los Angeles. Knowledgeable
people that fly in the Minden area and discuss things with ATC there
have never suggested that Reno is filtering out VFR codes!

And many (most?) glider pilots flying in the Minden area squak 0440
rathern than 1200. There's a letter of agreement in place with Reno ATC
that permits gliders to use 0440 as a way of telling ATC that the
aircraft is a glider. This eliminates the need for more radio chatter
and could make their filtering easier, assuming they can filter based on
the codes.

Jeremy

You can also ask for flight following without a transponder, but
primary echo's are not reliable. I have tried this in the past around
the ISP Class-C. Even 10nm out, with a 20m Carbon wing, they couldn't
see me on some headings.

If you do call ATC without a transponder, the proper phraseology is to
add "slant X-ray" after your call sign. The slant codes indicate
equipment like transponder and DME, and "/X" means none. I've had
controllers give me a squawk code anyway, because they may not be
familiar with this one, but at least it makes you sound professional.

If you have a Mode-C transponder only, the code is "slant Uniform. I am
/U now, and I carry 2 x 13 Ah batteries that can run the transponder
and everything else for over 12 hours.

Ray Lovinggood wrote:
Doug,

You don't have to have a transponder to get the controllers
to know you are there. True, I'm not talking 'Flight
Following' but more like 'Flight Awareness.'

On occassions, I have called the local controllers
for the Class C airport (RDU) and let them know I was
there and was monitoring their frequency. They would
first reply to 'Squak' such and such and I would tell
them I didn't have a transponder. They would then
find me on radar. Ok, maybe they aren't as busy as
some other locations, but at least I make them aware
that I'm out there. Occassionaly, they might call
up and ask how I'm doing, and just being friendly.

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA

My understanding is that the 1200 filter is used more often than not,
but that may be specific to the Northeast US where I fly. Controllors
who think they are busy can activate it to reduce their work load.
Corollers are only reposible for IFR-IFR traffic separation, and are
not required to report VFR traffic, even with a transponder. IFR pilots
in VMC are still responsible for see and avoid.

It is good that you have 0440 assigned for Gliders with Reno. There are
a similar patchwork of agreements with other centers. I think
Philadelphia approach uses 1202 for towplanes. There are various codes
for Baloons and Airships too, which may be in conflict between areas.
What we really need is a national set of these used universally.

Jeremy Zawodny wrote:
Eric Greenwell wrote:
Doug Haluza wrote:
Most ATC sections filter out 1200
VFR codes, and only view aircraft with discrete codes. So in this case,
even if the glider's transponder was on, there is no guarantee that the
controller even saw it, much less gave a traffic warning--they are not
required to warn IFR aircraft of VFR targets anyway.

Whoa! Really? Isn't that the point of requiring all airplanes to carry
transponders? What I've heard from multiple sources is the only places
the VFR code is filtered out are areas with VERY heavy traffic (and
where VFR traffic is confined), like over Los Angeles. Knowledgeable
people that fly in the Minden area and discuss things with ATC there
have never suggested that Reno is filtering out VFR codes!

And many (most?) glider pilots flying in the Minden area squak 0440
rathern than 1200. There's a letter of agreement in place with Reno ATC
that permits gliders to use 0440 as a way of telling ATC that the
aircraft is a glider. This eliminates the need for more radio chatter
and could make their filtering easier, assuming they can filter based on
the codes.

Jeremy

Mike Schumann wrote:
Why in the world would you leave a transponder off if you have the luxury of
having one????

Lack of sufficient battery capacity to run it for extended periods. Not
everyone has the luxury of having two 12 ah batteries...