How often do you have to go around?

Mxsmanic wrote:
d&tm writes:

And of course for obvious reasons powered aircraft have to give
way to gliders.

I guess one can't really ask a glider to go around.

There's no rule that says you have to give way to gliders.
If you are lower and on final you have the right of way.
Of course, common sense says to give gliders and others
restricted in ability to manouver the right of way.'


In addition, while ATC may have rules to that don't allow
them to permit it, there is no regulation from the pilot
side that says you can't have two aircraft on the runway
at the same time. You do have to be very careful however.

Right.. for example at OSH where they are landing 3 planes at a time on
the same runway.


Ron Natalie wrote:
Mxsmanic wrote:
d&tm writes:

And of course for obvious reasons powered aircraft have to give
way to gliders.

I guess one can't really ask a glider to go around.

There's no rule that says you have to give way to gliders.
If you are lower and on final you have the right of way.
Of course, common sense says to give gliders and others
restricted in ability to manouver the right of way.'


In addition, while ATC may have rules to that don't allow
them to permit it, there is no regulation from the pilot
side that says you can't have two aircraft on the runway
at the same time. You do have to be very careful however.

Dan wrote:
Right.. for example at OSH where they are landing 3 planes at a time on
the same runway.


Oshkosh gets a special exemption to allow that. Normally,
there are stricter rules that the controllers must follow.
They have to plan (with little exception) that one aircraft
can not touch down until the other is clear.

Ron Natalie wrote:
Mxsmanic wrote:
d&tm writes:

And of course for obvious reasons powered aircraft have to give
way to gliders.

I guess one can't really ask a glider to go around.

There's no rule that says you have to give way to gliders.
If you are lower and on final you have the right of way.
Of course, common sense says to give gliders and others
restricted in ability to manouver the right of way.'


In addition, while ATC may have rules to that don't allow
them to permit it, there is no regulation from the pilot
side that says you can't have two aircraft on the runway
at the same time. You do have to be very careful however.

Yes there is a rule saying gliders have the right of way.
Yes there is a rule saying you can't have two airplanes on the same
runway at the same time. If the other plane isn't past the Runway Hold
Short line and another airplane lands, it is considered a runway
incursion.

The other day I was landing at a towered airport and thought I was
about to have to go around so I queried the guy in the tower about the
other plane still being on the runway...He said there was more than
3000" between us so it was ok. So ATC has more flexiblity.

Tim Nunes writes:

He said there was more than
3000" between us so it was ok. So ATC has more flexiblity.

Even so, 250 feet seems awfully close.

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Tim Nunes wrote:


Yes there is a rule saying gliders have the right of way.

Uncontrolled fields.


Yes there is a rule saying you can't have two airplanes on the same
runway at the same time.

There's also a rule that says you can. Towered fields only. No such
rules for uncontrolled fields.



If the other plane isn't past the Runway Hold
Short line and another airplane lands, it is considered a runway
incursion.

You have that backwards. Controlled fields only.

On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 17:37:22 -0400, Ron Natalie wrote:

I guess one can't really ask a glider to go around.

There's no rule that says you have to give way to gliders.

unpowered over powered?

If you are lower and on final you have the right of way.
Of course, common sense says to give gliders and others
restricted in ability to manouver the right of way.'

#m
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Martin Hotze wrote:
On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 17:37:22 -0400, Ron Natalie wrote:

I guess one can't really ask a glider to go around.

There's no rule that says you have to give way to gliders.

unpowered over powered?

Sort of. It's who is the least maneuverable (at least in the US). See
(d)(2). Who is arguing that you don't? I'm guessing somehow that it's
not Ron.



§ 91.113 Right-of-way rules: Except water operations.

(a) Inapplicability. This section does not apply to the operation of an
aircraft on water.

(b) General. When weather conditions permit, regardless of whether an
operation is conducted under instrument flight rules or visual flight
rules, vigilance shall be maintained by each person operating an
aircraft so as to see and avoid other aircraft. When a rule of this
section gives another aircraft the right-of-way, the pilot shall give
way to that aircraft and may not pass over, under, or ahead of it unless
well clear.

(c) In distress. An aircraft in distress has the right-of-way over all
other air traffic.

(d) Converging. When aircraft of the same category are converging at
approximately the same altitude (except head-on, or nearly so), the
aircraft to the other's right has the right-of-way. If the aircraft are
of different categories—

(1) A balloon has the right-of-way over any other category of aircraft;

(2) A glider has the right-of-way over an airship, powered parachute,
weight-shift-control aircraft, airplane, or rotorcraft.

(3) An airship has the right-of-way over a powered parachute,
weight-shift-control aircraft, airplane, or rotorcraft.

However, an aircraft towing or refueling other aircraft has the
right-of-way over all other engine-driven aircraft.

(e) Approaching head-on. When aircraft are approaching each other
head-on, or nearly so, each pilot of each aircraft shall alter course to
the right.

(f) Overtaking. Each aircraft that is being overtaken has the
right-of-way and each pilot of an overtaking aircraft shall alter course
to the right to pass well clear.

(g) Landing. Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing,
have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the
surface, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to force
an aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed and is
attempting to make way for an aircraft on final approach. When two or
more aircraft are approaching an airport for the purpose of landing, the
aircraft at the lower altitude has the right-of-way, but it shall not
take advantage of this rule to cut in front of another which is on final
approach to land or to overtake that aircraft.

Martin Hotze wrote:
On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 17:37:22 -0400, Ron Natalie wrote:

I guess one can't really ask a glider to go around.

There's no rule that says you have to give way to gliders.

unpowered over powered?

Either way. The only time the class preference occurs
is when coverging at other than headon (or nearly so).
Other than that the other rules apply. On approach,
the aircraft on final has the right of way. This is
not a problem for gliders, generally. While they
can't go around, they will yield to powered aircraft
already on final and pull in behind them. This is
almost never an issue because gliders are flying a
lot slower.

Mxsmanic wrote:
How often does this happen in real life? I should think and hope that
real controllers can space aircraft better so that it's rarely
necessary to abort a landing.

In a few hundred hours flying out of Hanscom (primary GA field for
Boston) I've had to go around maybe a half-dozen times, mostly for
runway-lingering by the plane in front. Once the controller sequenced
me a little too tightly. It is a very busy field on the weekends with a
lot of training to keep things messy- 5th in line to take off or land
is not unusual.

In about a half-million airline miles, mostly continental US, I've had
one go-around, on the Delta Shuttle into Boston, because the plane
ahead had not cleared the runway in time. It was a CAVU day and I'd
guess we were well inside the middle marker when they threw in the
towel.