ATC out to get us?

I would propose that there are sightseeing flights not worth taking
(and this may be one of them though I have not looked at a chart to make
an informed judgment).

I hereby recognize that we have this great freedom to fly practically
anywhere at almost any time.

I also declare that great freedom implies great responsibility. In
aviation we often call it pilot discretion.

And therefore conclude that some flights are best left undone despite
legal clearance, CAVU conditions and our irrepressible desire to view
earthly proceedings from a lofty perch.

Can I get a "amen"? (tightening chin strap)

(Fascinating post - this is not aimed at that particular situation, just
a general proclamation that might be applied to something like, the East
River part of the NYC VFR corridor)

mvgossman wrote:
I have a question that I am curious about having stumped several CFIs
locally.

I'm flying from my home base, St. Cloud, Minnesota, to St. Paul
Downtown Airport. Pull out your Twin Cities sectional if you have
one... Along the way my son and I are going to do some sightseeing over
the State Fairgrounds. The MSP class B airspace is 100/70, 100/40,
100/30, 100/23, and 100/SFC. The fairgrounds are just outside the inner
surface ring. The terrain is around 1000 ft MSL and some significant
towers in the area also. I would rather stay at 2500 which would place
me inside Bravo of the 100/23 ring over the Fairgrounds. Complicating
matters are two class D areas, virtually touching, at [34] between St.
Cloud and the Fairgrounds.

So I am VFR, flying to the southeast at 5500, I speak to approach and
ask for direct to the Fairgrounds for sightseeing with clearance to
enter class B. That is denied but I am advised to continue, maintain
3000. As I get close to the class D at [34], but still under the 100/40
shelf pf course, I point out that I will need to speak to Anoka Class D
to traverse their airspace unless Approach can get me clearance. They
told me to maintain 3000 "and you'll be OK". By this I assume
they meant "no traffic in the class D area at that altitude" but I
was unsure. Having faith they were not out to get me, I complied and
remained at 3000, bored through the upper reaches of Anoka's Class D.

I was next to enter the 100/30 ring at 3000. I have always understood
that 100/30 means inclusive so I advised approach I would either need
lower or a clearance to enter Bravo. I was told "Stay at 3000 and
you'll be OK." No "cleared to enter Bravo" magic words, so I
said "how about 2800 to remain clear of Bravo?" and clearance for
this was granted.

Next I was to enter the 100/23 ring so I advised approach "In order
to maintain terrain and obstacle clearance, I'll between 2500 and
2800 and clearance to enter class Bravo over the Fairgrounds". I was
switched to the tower frequency and given clearance to enter Bravo and
advised to stay northeast of the active runways, and after a few
circles, on to STP.

So all's well that ends well, but:

1. Can Approach grant clearance to go thru intervening class D when
VFR? I am accustomed to this as a matter of routine when IFR but I do
not know about VFR.

2. Why was I given in effect "permission", but no clearance, to enter
class Bravo at 3000, therefore permission to bust class Bravo and
potentially get cited? Is it conceivable that a controller would be so
sadistic as to send a place through Bravo without clearance and then
bust them?

3. Is there a better way for this trip that you can think of? For
instance, is it reasonable to file IFR and then, along the way, spring
a request to circle the area of interest, under the implied clearance
to be in Bravo and Class D afforded by the IFR flight plan?

Mitchell

St. Cloud, Minnesota

I won't give an "Amen" but I will give an "Amen, but..."

We should not hesitate to operate in a legal manner in any way possible
that is safe. Circling an object of interest within Class B should not
be a big deal if it can be worked by the controllers, and to a man I
have found them to be very helpful and not once have I been denied a
clearance for sightseeing anywhere. On the other hand, we should not
request to do low circling ("loitering" as the FAA puts it) in the
vicinity of nuclear power plants etc... it makes people nervous.

To restrict aircraft movements in sensitive areas is not workable
unless accompanied by an F-15 in the air ready to shoot airplanes down.
Virtually every sensitive structure is within 5 miles of uncontrolled
airspace at a decent altitude, which, if a madman were at the controls,
is 2.5 minutes from impact in my small airplane. And all of these sites
are mere feet from a Ryder truck full of fertilizer and fuel oil. No
way to counteract airplanes without surface to air missiles such as the
White House is said to have.

Mitch


Maule Driver wrote:
I would propose that there are sightseeing flights not worth taking
(and this may be one of them though I have not looked at a chart to make
an informed judgment).

I hereby recognize that we have this great freedom to fly practically
anywhere at almost any time.

I also declare that great freedom implies great responsibility. In
aviation we often call it pilot discretion.

And therefore conclude that some flights are best left undone despite
legal clearance, CAVU conditions and our irrepressible desire to view
earthly proceedings from a lofty perch.

Can I get a "amen"? (tightening chin strap)

(Fascinating post - this is not aimed at that particular situation, just
a general proclamation that might be applied to something like, the East
River part of the NYC VFR corridor)

mvgossman wrote:
I have a question that I am curious about having stumped several CFIs
locally.

I'm flying from my home base, St. Cloud, Minnesota, to St. Paul
Downtown Airport. Pull out your Twin Cities sectional if you have
one... Along the way my son and I are going to do some sightseeing over
the State Fairgrounds. The MSP class B airspace is 100/70, 100/40,
100/30, 100/23, and 100/SFC. The fairgrounds are just outside the inner
surface ring. The terrain is around 1000 ft MSL and some significant
towers in the area also. I would rather stay at 2500 which would place
me inside Bravo of the 100/23 ring over the Fairgrounds. Complicating
matters are two class D areas, virtually touching, at [34] between St.
Cloud and the Fairgrounds.

So I am VFR, flying to the southeast at 5500, I speak to approach and
ask for direct to the Fairgrounds for sightseeing with clearance to
enter class B. That is denied but I am advised to continue, maintain
3000. As I get close to the class D at [34], but still under the 100/40
shelf pf course, I point out that I will need to speak to Anoka Class D
to traverse their airspace unless Approach can get me clearance. They
told me to maintain 3000 "and you'll be OK". By this I assume
they meant "no traffic in the class D area at that altitude" but I
was unsure. Having faith they were not out to get me, I complied and
remained at 3000, bored through the upper reaches of Anoka's Class D.

I was next to enter the 100/30 ring at 3000. I have always understood
that 100/30 means inclusive so I advised approach I would either need
lower or a clearance to enter Bravo. I was told "Stay at 3000 and
you'll be OK." No "cleared to enter Bravo" magic words, so I
said "how about 2800 to remain clear of Bravo?" and clearance for
this was granted.

Next I was to enter the 100/23 ring so I advised approach "In order
to maintain terrain and obstacle clearance, I'll between 2500 and
2800 and clearance to enter class Bravo over the Fairgrounds". I was
switched to the tower frequency and given clearance to enter Bravo and
advised to stay northeast of the active runways, and after a few
circles, on to STP.

So all's well that ends well, but:

1. Can Approach grant clearance to go thru intervening class D when
VFR? I am accustomed to this as a matter of routine when IFR but I do
not know about VFR.

2. Why was I given in effect "permission", but no clearance, to enter
class Bravo at 3000, therefore permission to bust class Bravo and
potentially get cited? Is it conceivable that a controller would be so
sadistic as to send a place through Bravo without clearance and then
bust them?

3. Is there a better way for this trip that you can think of? For
instance, is it reasonable to file IFR and then, along the way, spring
a request to circle the area of interest, under the implied clearance
to be in Bravo and Class D afforded by the IFR flight plan?

Mitchell

St. Cloud, Minnesota

mvgossman writes:

To restrict aircraft movements in sensitive areas is not workable
unless accompanied by an F-15 in the air ready to shoot airplanes down.
Virtually every sensitive structure is within 5 miles of uncontrolled
airspace at a decent altitude, which, if a madman were at the controls,
is 2.5 minutes from impact in my small airplane. And all of these sites
are mere feet from a Ryder truck full of fertilizer and fuel oil. No
way to counteract airplanes without surface to air missiles such as the
White House is said to have.

A suicidal pilot in a plane isn't likely to be discouraged by the
prospect of being shot down, nor is shooting him down likely to stop
him from accomplishing his purpose. If the aircraft is loaded with
biological or radiological toxins, they will be spread effectively
whether the plane crashes at the controls of the pilot or explodes
when struck by a missile. Either way, it's mission accomplished for
the nut case in the cockpit. From what I've read, not too many people
have thought of that.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

mvgossman wrote:
3. Is there a better way for this trip that you can think of? For
instance, is it reasonable to file IFR and then, along the way, spring
a request to circle the area of interest, under the implied clearance
to be in Bravo and Class D afforded by the IFR flight plan?

I have a similar issue with trying to sightsee my house, it's under the
2500MSL (~1500AGL) ring of PIT class B and close to the SFC area. I
haven't managed to try it yet, but I did go to one of those FAA "Meet
the Controllers" things where someone asked a question about
sightseeing. The controllers said give them a call on the phone a
couple days in advance, tell them what you want to do, and they'll try
to give you some days and times when traffic should be light and they
can hopefully accommodate you. But, he added that it wasn't entirely
predictable so don't be upset if you go at the appointed time and find
out they can't handle you.

todd.

"mvgossman" wrote in message
ups.com...

I have a question that I am curious about having stumped several CFIs
locally.

I'm flying from my home base, St. Cloud, Minnesota, to St. Paul
Downtown Airport. Pull out your Twin Cities sectional if you have
one... Along the way my son and I are going to do some sightseeing over
the State Fairgrounds. The MSP class B airspace is 100/70, 100/40,
100/30, 100/23, and 100/SFC. The fairgrounds are just outside the inner
surface ring. The terrain is around 1000 ft MSL and some significant
towers in the area also. I would rather stay at 2500 which would place
me inside Bravo of the 100/23 ring over the Fairgrounds. Complicating
matters are two class D areas, virtually touching, at [34] between St.
Cloud and the Fairgrounds.

So I am VFR, flying to the southeast at 5500, I speak to approach and
ask for direct to the Fairgrounds for sightseeing with clearance to
enter class B. That is denied but I am advised to continue, maintain
3000. As I get close to the class D at [34], but still under the 100/40
shelf pf course, I point out that I will need to speak to Anoka Class D
to traverse their airspace unless Approach can get me clearance. They
told me to maintain 3000 "and you'll be OK". By this I assume
they meant "no traffic in the class D area at that altitude" but I
was unsure. Having faith they were not out to get me, I complied and
remained at 3000, bored through the upper reaches of Anoka's Class D.

I was next to enter the 100/30 ring at 3000. I have always understood
that 100/30 means inclusive so I advised approach I would either need
lower or a clearance to enter Bravo. I was told "Stay at 3000 and
you'll be OK." No "cleared to enter Bravo" magic words, so I
said "how about 2800 to remain clear of Bravo?" and clearance for
this was granted.

Next I was to enter the 100/23 ring so I advised approach "In order
to maintain terrain and obstacle clearance, I'll between 2500 and
2800 and clearance to enter class Bravo over the Fairgrounds". I was
switched to the tower frequency and given clearance to enter Bravo and
advised to stay northeast of the active runways, and after a few
circles, on to STP.

So all's well that ends well, but:

1. Can Approach grant clearance to go thru intervening class D when
VFR? I am accustomed to this as a matter of routine when IFR but I do
not know about VFR.


There are no clearances to transit Class D airspace while VFR. If you're
receiving flight following the radar controller is required to coordinate
your transition with the tower. You are not expected to do it yourself.



2. Why was I given in effect "permission", but no clearance, to enter
class Bravo at 3000, therefore permission to bust class Bravo and
potentially get cited? Is it conceivable that a controller would be so
sadistic as to send a place through Bravo without clearance and then
bust them?


I'd make "cleared to enter Class B airspace" part of my readback. If the
intent was to deny entry he'll have to correct the readback, if he doesn't
correct the readback I have a clearance.