How do you find the limits of areas on a chart?

In article ,
Mxsmanic wrote:

I see tons of restricted areas, MOAs, Class B, C, D, E airspace, and
the like on charts, but no clear indication of how to locate the
boundaries of these areas other than by pure guesstimate based on
looking at the chart.

Do you mean how do you find the boundary as depicted on the chart, or
how do you relate the depicted boundary to an actual physical location
out in the real world?

If the former, there's a legend printed on every chart.

If the latter, when all else fails, some pilots fall back on an advanced
technique that is all but forgotten in this age of GPS. It's called
"looking out the window for landmarks."

rg

Ron Garret writes:

Do you mean how do you find the boundary as depicted on the chart, or
how do you relate the depicted boundary to an actual physical location
out in the real world?

How do I relate it to the real world? In other words, how do I know,
as I fly along, whether I'm inside or outside a boundary? Very often
the boundaries cross largely empty areas of the chart, with no precise
indications of how to locate the boundary in the real world.

If the latter, when all else fails, some pilots fall back on an advanced
technique that is all but forgotten in this age of GPS. It's called
"looking out the window for landmarks."

But the charts don't have that many landmarks, and the boundaries
rarely seem to be based on landmarks; instead, they seem to have been
surveyed.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Mxsmanic wrote in
:

But the charts don't have that many landmarks, and the boundaries
rarely seem to be based on landmarks; instead, they seem to have been
surveyed.

WRONG AGAIN.

Maybe if you took the time to RESEARCH how to read a sectional, you will
find all sorts of goodies, such as power lines, lakes, rivers, cities,
points of interests that actually correlate with USING YOUR EYES outside
the window. And guess what, there are even roads depicted on the charts.

And this is only a small taste of what a chart can offer. DO YOUR RESEARCH
and you wouldn't be saying such silly things as above.

Allen

A Lieberma writes:

Maybe if you took the time to RESEARCH how to read a sectional, you will
find all sorts of goodies, such as power lines, lakes, rivers, cities,
points of interests that actually correlate with USING YOUR EYES outside
the window.

I've looked very carefully at sectionals. In the vast majority of
cases, there are no clear landmarks indicated that allow one to locate
the exact boundary of airspaces. The best one can do is allow a
margin of several miles or more, but in crowded areas that may not be
sufficient.

How do I know if I'm in the southwestern tip of the Turtle MOA on the
chart that covers Arizona, for example? There are no landmarks given.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Mxsmanic wrote in
:

A Lieberma writes:

Maybe if you took the time to RESEARCH how to read a sectional, you will
find all sorts of goodies, such as power lines, lakes, rivers, cities,
points of interests that actually correlate with USING YOUR EYES outside
the window.

I've looked very carefully at sectionals. In the vast majority of
cases, there are no clear landmarks indicated that allow one to locate
the exact boundary of airspaces. The best one can do is allow a
margin of several miles or more, but in crowded areas that may not be
sufficient.

How do I know if I'm in the southwestern tip of the Turtle MOA on the
chart that covers Arizona, for example? There are no landmarks given.


You would observe the Pinto Mountains intersecting the Sheep Hole Mountains,
and know that the edge of the MOA is about halfway between that and the Cadiz
Lake... It's pretty distinct, actually, if you know how to read a sectional.

In article ,
Mxsmanic wrote:

How do I know if I'm in the southwestern tip of the Turtle MOA on the
chart that covers Arizona, for example?

You are mightily confused, my friend. The Turtle MOA is (mostly) in
California, not Arizona.

There are no landmarks given.

Do you see Cadiz lake?

I've looked very carefully at sectionals.

Apparently not.

rg

On Thu, 02 Nov 2006 02:35:43 +0100, Mxsmanic wrote:

Ron Garret writes:

Do you mean how do you find the boundary as depicted on the chart, or
how do you relate the depicted boundary to an actual physical location
out in the real world?

How do I relate it to the real world? In other words, how do I know,
as I fly along, whether I'm inside or outside a boundary? Very often
the boundaries cross largely empty areas of the chart, with no precise
indications of how to locate the boundary in the real world.


It's called pilotage and it's really not that hard in real life, if you
are at all good with maps in the first place (which I expect most pilots
are). You really owe it to yourself to fly for real some day.

(reminds me of a great line in LordOTRings:
"Maps conveyed nothing to Sam's mind")




randall g =%^) PPASEL+Night 1974 Cardinal RG
http://www.telemark.net/randallg
Lots of aerial photographs of British Columbia at:
http://www.telemark.net/randallg/photos.htm
Vancouver's famous Kat Kam: http://www.katkam.ca

Mxsmanic wrote in
:

How do I relate it to the real world? In other words, how do I know,
as I fly along, whether I'm inside or outside a boundary? Very often
the boundaries cross largely empty areas of the chart, with no precise
indications of how to locate the boundary in the real world.

In the real world, you start out at a known location, and monitor your
progress using navigation tools such as pilotage, dead reckoning, etc. You
don't simply 'pop' into a largely empty area of a chart.

But the charts don't have that many landmarks, and the boundaries
rarely seem to be based on landmarks; instead, they seem to have been
surveyed.

The charts have numerous landmarks - lakes, rivers, roads, power lines,
cities, racetracks, aqueducts, quarries, bridges, antennas, hills, mountains.
All are very discernable from the air in real life. MSFS does not effectively
simulate the real-world view of the ground from the cockpit of a small plane,
and that is why you are having so much trouble.

Judah wrote:
In the real world, you start out at a known location, and monitor your
progress using navigation tools such as pilotage, dead reckoning, etc. You
don't simply 'pop' into a largely empty area of a chart.

Ahhh, but you can in MSFS... snicker

I think if you're going to thread tight areas in an unfamiliar metro
area these days, you'd better have a GPS with airspace depiction.
Sure, you may be able to do it via pilotage, but then again you could
easily screw up and bust class B (or worse).

Sometimes I just file IFR to avoid the hassles.

--Dan


Grumman-581 wrote:
Judah wrote:
In the real world, you start out at a known location, and monitor your
progress using navigation tools such as pilotage, dead reckoning, etc. You
don't simply 'pop' into a largely empty area of a chart.

Ahhh, but you can in MSFS... snicker