Photos from Winter

HL Falbaum wrote:
The guy at 18,500 is a) IFR, b) alt set on 29.92, c) his ALT should have had
a static check for IFR, d) in contact with ATC, squawking ALT on his mode C
transponder. e) moving fast and bigger than you!

If you are there ---you should have a TPAS or TCAS or a transponder.

And I believe ATC won't allow him to fly at FL185 if that is only 500
feet above 18,000 msl. Isn't the minimum clearance to 18,000'msl at
least 1000 feet?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
news:H93fh.3320$Z67.2248@trndny02...
HL Falbaum wrote:
The guy at 18,500 is a) IFR, b) alt set on 29.92, c) his ALT should have
had a static check for IFR, d) in contact with ATC, squawking ALT on his
mode C transponder. e) moving fast and bigger than you!

If you are there ---you should have a TPAS or TCAS or a transponder.

And I believe ATC won't allow him to fly at FL185 if that is only 500 feet
above 18,000 msl. Isn't the minimum clearance to 18,000'msl at least 1000
feet?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org


I think youy are right, but it depends on the sea level barometric
pressure---might be more than 1000'. But that was the altitude proposed in
the discussion.
Just to add to the discussion---some years ago, while prospecting for the
diamond at Minden, I flew several ships--6 wave flights in five
days---finally got it right! One of the ships had a 57mm Winter ALT. On the
face was the inscription "20,000 ft". The hands stopped at 24,000 ! The
vario still showed "up" so I continued. The Replogle eventually recorded
27,000 ft. The hands started moving again on the way down, after a while. I
guess the movement runs out of excursion.

Hartley Falbaum
DG800B "KF" USA

Bruce, there is more to it.
Rational analysis, yes, but open your eyes. Read what the other users
are saying. 302, no- altimeter is 100 or so times more acurate than
Winter altimeter.....?
Exercise of free speech?. I don't care who is right. I'm a glider
pilot, the end user and not a dealer. After all I really care only for
what is on my panel.
Money invested in selsmanship and marketing do not impress me at all
and I don't think they are improving any of the Winter instruments.
Regards
RK


Figured -
Once again we have a demonstration of the difference between rational analysis
and the exercise of free speech.


Cheers
Bruce

Hi Richard

I agree with you - there are other more accurate altimeters. I have two of them.
The problem is that the majority of the instruments in use are the inaccurate
mechanical bellows connected to impossibly complex/fine gear train variety that
have the errors we see on the Winters. I don't know if Winter are any worse than
the average - seem to compare well with the others (PZLs) in my limited experience.

If everybody flies to the same referrence with the same error - we are all
fairly close to having the relative seperation we should have. If some of us are
using accurate instruments and others not then we could have a problem. It's the
same problem they have in applying the reduced vertical seperation is Europe.

So - ignoring salesmanship what do we do? We know they are in common use, and
have a fairly big intrinsic error. As long as the regulations demand a
mechanical ASI and Altimeter we will continue to have the "problem".

Personally - I think the altimeters make smaller errors on average than the
pilots using them. IF the pilot knows the potential error, surely he/she can
compensate.

wrote:
Bruce, there is more to it.
Rational analysis, yes, but open your eyes. Read what the other users
are saying. 302, no- altimeter is 100 or so times more acurate than
Winter altimeter.....?
Exercise of free speech?. I don't care who is right. I'm a glider
pilot, the end user and not a dealer. After all I really care only for
what is on my panel.
Money invested in selsmanship and marketing do not impress me at all
and I don't think they are improving any of the Winter instruments.
Regards
RK



Figured -
Once again we have a demonstration of the difference between rational analysis
and the exercise of free speech.



Cheers
Bruce

wrote in message ps.com...
The guy who put my glider together, and he is a
glider/instrument/designer/manufacturer with tens of years of
expirience told me that Winter altimeters are worth nothing and the
matter of fact they are outright dengerous.

I'm glad you trust completely, and bought a glider from someone who is a glider/instrument/designer/manufacturer with tens of years expirience

10 years experience in this arena is a blink of the eye...he surely must be a fast learner!
tim
Wings & Wheels
www.wingsandwheels.com




They should not be used at
all. The same goes for Winter airspeed instruments. Go figure.
PZL do not make their W-13S with 1000ft per rotation, so it looks like
we are left with the only smart choice of United.
RK

And yeas, the photos of the town are great.


Andrew Wood wrote:
I have always thought that Winter instruments are excellent,
and their repair/calibration support has been very
good in my limited experience (I've only needed Winter
support once, and got good service). But there is one
caution that I am aware of: the compact Winter altimeters
have possible errors that US pilots should be aware
of. It's not a secret: the possible errors are listed
in the Winter altimeter data sheet. This is important
to know, for pilots flying under a class B ceiling
(as I do), and especially for pilots who fly up to
the 18000ft ceiling, since the Winter data sheet errors
are surprisingly large at higher altitudes. Take a
look and see. As an experiment, I tested my three altimeters
(my Winter 4FGH40, my Cambridge 302, and my SN10b)
at my local airport, using my airport barometric setting,
to see if the three altimeters agreed with the published
airport elevation (1000ft msl). The errors were respectively
140ft, 2ft and 80ft. The Winter error is at the very
limit of the Winter data sheet error for 1000ft msl,
which is surprising since it had just been recalibrated
by the factory (because it had previously had an even
larger error). The other instruments were about 2 years
from calibration. In comparison, most US aircraft altimeters
that I've seen in (IFR qualified) power planes have
been very accurate under this test, not more than 50ft
error at the very most. The US IFR altimeter accuracy
requirement for this test is 75ft. So under the US
altimeter test, the Winter altimeter would fail, the
Cambridge would be perfect, and the SN10b just acceptable.
I've been asking around as to which of my three altimeters
is the 'legal' altimeter to use, but (of course) have
got no clear answer.


At 19:01 08 December 2006, Tim Mara wrote:
I've actually been there in their shop and gone out
for dinner with Achim
Winter..It's very much like a small watch shop with
everyone working
meticulously with tiny tools and magnifying glasses
each hand building 3 or
4 instruments from start to finish at a time. Interestingly,
the owner, his
father and his father before him were none of them
pilots and got into this
business building aircraft instruments totally from
other business but their
instruments have been the standard for the sailplane
industry for decades
and remain the best and most recognized in their field.
Winter also has a
full catalog on line at http://www.winter-bordgeraete.de/
tim
Wings & Wheels
www.wingsandwheels.com

'Paul Remde' wrote in message
news:qMheh.263996$FQ1.171910@attbi_s71...
Hi,

I just updated my Winter instruments web site with
a few photos from the
factory. Last year at this time they sent me a few
photos of the town the
company is located in. This year they sent me a few
photos showing the
instrument assembly area and the stand on which they
adjust altimeters. I
enjoy photos like these because they show a bit more
about the company and
the people that make the instruments. Most glider
pilots fly with Winter
instruments and we have come to trust and rely on
them.