Annual Off to a Good Start

One of my favorite "you won't believe what they found in my airplane"
stories is that of a guy who kept hearing a clunking noise inside the wing
of his 182 when he flew with less than 1/2 fuel. It turned out to be the
2x4 that the bladder installer left as evidence of just how "easy" they are
to button down.
Jim

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 20 Mar 2007 07:55:33 -0600, Newps wrote:


Somebody tell me again why a rubber bladder is a bad deal? At any time
you can get leaking rivets and cause yourself some heartache. Didn't
you just have some kind of tank repair not too long ago? I put in a new
bladder and I don't touch that tank for 30 years.

So what is the price of admission to watch you "put in a new bladder"?

Next question would be what is the price for a new OEM Bo' bladder?

TC

On Tue, 20 Mar 2007 18:03:46 -0500, "Jim Burns"
wrote:

One of my favorite "you won't believe what they found in my airplane"
stories is that of a guy who kept hearing a clunking noise inside the wing
of his 182 when he flew with less than 1/2 fuel. It turned out to be the
2x4 that the bladder installer left as evidence of just how "easy" they are
to button down.
Jim

Lot of Aztrucks flying around with a blind rivet in the center of the
groups of four rivets that secure the little brackets that the
bladder button clips into. Usually just on the ones that are farthest
from the access/close-out plate.

Have never drilled a "virgin" one myself, but allegedly have r&r'ed
some rivets that were already there.

The theory is to snake a piece of safety wire done through the skin,
through the bracket, through the loop in the button, back out the top
following the same route. Pull on the wire, the clip goes into the
bracket...

There are a couple on 182's that are a serious PITA.

TC

Sounds interesting for sure. All of our bladders were replaced during the
last few years prior to our purchase. I'm going to look closely for the
blind rivet heads.
Thanks
Jim

I replaced a bladder a year ago. 42 gallon tank in the left wing. Bo
bladders cost the same as Cessna bladders of similar gallons when you
buy from the three main aftermarket sources like Eagle or Floats and
Fuel Cells. No idea what Beech charges, probably horrendous. But
nobody buys a bladder from Beech or Cessna. That would be stupid,
they're buying them aftermarket, why pay the up charge? Labor for a Bo
is less than on the 182 I had by several hours. First reason is because
you are standing on the ground and not always going up and down the
ladder. Second is all the snaps are easily reachable. Third all the
connections are easily accessible, no dissasembling the headliner to get
at the sender, etc. Fourth the tank is easily removable. How do you
get a Cherokee tank out? Derivet? Remove a wing?

wrote:
On Tue, 20 Mar 2007 07:55:33 -0600, Newps wrote:

Somebody tell me again why a rubber bladder is a bad deal? At any time
you can get leaking rivets and cause yourself some heartache. Didn't
you just have some kind of tank repair not too long ago? I put in a new
bladder and I don't touch that tank for 30 years.

So what is the price of admission to watch you "put in a new bladder"?

Next question would be what is the price for a new OEM Bo' bladder?

TC

On 3/21/2007 11:29:54 AM, Newps wrote:

I replaced a bladder a year ago.

Thanks for providing your experiences. I had been thinking that the only
major issue I had left to encounter with my Bonanza (after replacing the
engine, overhauling the prop, and various avionics repairs) would have been
fuel bladder replacements. It seems from reading your narrative that it is
not quite as bad as I had envisioned.

--
Peter

No mention of what make/model, but here's a rant by an A&P about bladders
from the AMT forums... enjoy.

Today a coworker and I were discussing feats of engineering that scaled the
heights of stupidity. We decided that aircraft engineers must be failed
automotive or mechanical engineers finding refuge in the dark, murky
hinterland of aviation, where they are free to wreak havoc on hapless AMT's
with total impunity and no fear of retribution or retaliation. Some of the
beauties they've created:
The "Fruit Roll-up Fuel Cell": Roll it up like a sleeping bag and stuff it
through a sharp metal-edged hole about half the diameter of said sleeping
bag. Now unroll it. Fix it in place with snaps that are located in the right
location, only 1/2" off from where you need them to be. Now stuff flexible
aluminum mesh screens through hard rubber nipples without bending them. Did
that? OK, now put hose clamps on those nipples up inside a 1 inch wing root
gap. Don't forget the one on top! Now, stuff the fuel transmitter through a
hole much too small (it's OK to bend the float arm, right? Just as long as I
bend it back?) Now, line up a gasket sandwich with too-short screws with
seals under the heads. Oh, did I mention the gaskets only line up correctly
ONE WAY? Sorry. You'll have to remove the transmitter again, rebend the
float arm, line everything up in your hand and mark it with a Sharpie. Now
Bend the float arm again and reinstall it. Straighten out the float arm. Got
it? Whew! Good.
Now you get to put all the little floating snap-things in their straps and
try to shove them in holes you can't see, can't feel, but just know have to
be there. Don't miss any! Can't reach the far corner ones? WHAT!!!? God
didn't equip you with four-and-a-half foot arms from birth? Some AMT you
are! Use a two-by-four swaddled in duct tape, dummy! What? No leverage?
Well, duct-tape it to your arm. Hairy arms are for gorillas anyway. Finally
got it? Good! Now hook up the vent line. Never mind the agonizing pain as
the metal rends your flesh. I'll let you in on a secret; these engineers
measured the forarms of an average man at a certain point, then placed the
vent line four inches aft of where your forearm diameter completely fills
the inspection hole. Crafty little buggers!
Now close up the fuel bay panels. Why do we need #3 Phillips screws, and why
are they all rusty and stripped? Oh....because they knew we wouldn't have
any in stock. Nevermind!
Now (drum roll) Fill 'er up. Does it leak? You poor ba$tard! Now you have to
drain it, and you can't put the fuel back in! The FAA would never approve of
refueling from a 55 gallon drum. So you get to charge the customer for
fourty gallons of fuel he never got. Or, tell the boss that you can't bill
him for fourty gallons of fuel he never got because you goofed and it leaks.
Lesser of two evils?
What's that? Oh it DIDN'T leak! Good for you! You showed those bloody
engineers! Ha! Take that!

What's that? The book flat-rate for this monkey motion is EIGHT
HOURS!!!!!!!!!!?????

Jim

Before I got my Bonanza, I was looking at Mooney's. The after market
bladder tanks made by O&N are considered an upgrade. My bladders were
all replaced about 20 years ago.

My first annual with this airplane is in May.

Dave
M35

Newps wrote:
I replaced a bladder a year ago. 42 gallon tank in the left wing. Bo
bladders cost the same as Cessna bladders of similar gallons when you
buy from the three main aftermarket sources like Eagle or Floats and
Fuel Cells. No idea what Beech charges, probably horrendous. But
nobody buys a bladder from Beech or Cessna. That would be stupid,
they're buying them aftermarket, why pay the up charge? Labor for a Bo
is less than on the 182 I had by several hours. First reason is because
you are standing on the ground and not always going up and down the
ladder. Second is all the snaps are easily reachable. Third all the
connections are easily accessible, no dissasembling the headliner to get
at the sender, etc. Fourth the tank is easily removable. How do you
get a Cherokee tank out? Derivet? Remove a wing?

wrote:
On Tue, 20 Mar 2007 07:55:33 -0600, Newps wrote:

Somebody tell me again why a rubber bladder is a bad deal? At any
time you can get leaking rivets and cause yourself some heartache.
Didn't you just have some kind of tank repair not too long ago? I
put in a new bladder and I don't touch that tank for 30 years.

So what is the price of admission to watch you "put in a new bladder"?

Next question would be what is the price for a new OEM Bo' bladder?

TC

My first annual with this airplane is in May.

"Yea, though I walk through the Valley of the Shadow of Death, I shall
fear no evil..."

:-)

We wrapped ours up today. Buttoned everything back up, and then
started on all the stupid little cosmetic things that drive ya nuts
over time, but don't usually get addressed. So, I spent a few
hours...

....replacing corroded interior screws and washers.
....repainting the flap handle and flap handle housing.
....applying new wing-walk. (Now THERE is a cheap high...)
....fixing the wing root rubber that was gooey from the gas leak
....cleaning exhaust residue off the belly.

Signed, sealed (literally!), and delivered for $1038.00. Not bad at
all, considering all the extra work my A&P on that fuel leak.

Atlas is good for another year -- tomorrow, we go fly!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

On Mar 21, 11:29 am, Newps wrote:
I replaced a bladder a year ago. 42 gallon tank in the left wing. Bo
bladders cost the same as Cessna bladders of similar gallons when you
buy from the three main aftermarket sources like Eagle or Floats and
Fuel Cells. No idea what Beech charges, probably horrendous. But
nobody buys a bladder from Beech or Cessna. That would be stupid,
they're buying them aftermarket, why pay the up charge? Labor for a Bo
is less than on the 182 I had by several hours. First reason is because
you are standing on the ground and not always going up and down the
ladder. Second is all the snaps are easily reachable. Third all the
connections are easily accessible, no dissasembling the headliner to get
at the sender, etc. Fourth the tank is easily removable. How do you
get a Cherokee tank out? Derivet? Remove a wing?


"that would be stupid, why pay the up charge"

Well, let's see. Based purely on personal experience, the life of an
aftermarket tank is usually about half that of an OEM tank-primarily
depends on how good of a job the aftermarket boys did in "engineering"
the new tank. The other reason might be that there are aftermarket
Bonanza tanks out there that will NOT fit in the applicable make and
model of A/C. Really neat thing to find out after you have spent the
time (and tied up a hangar bay) to send out a bladder for eval, find
out it's junk (big surprise), purchase an aftermarket tank ("why
should I pay the extra $$") and find out that either the tank sump
drain nipple OR the main fuel feed nipple will line up and poke out
through the little hole...

A basic older Bo tank is a little easier than a 180-twice, BTW, I've
allegedly done both. A King Air is a piece of cake, the size of each
fuel bay/bladder is a lot smaller in relation to the size of the
access panel. You still have to remove all the old tape and glue
residue and re-tape. Aztecs suck rocks.

Despite Jay's tale of woe, pulling a Cherokee wing tank is a matter of
removing some 10-32 structural machine screws and sliding the whole
thing out (in one piece) out of the wing. Repairs are just like any
other "wet-wing" structure, but you have the piece of wing laying on
the workbench, with ready access to the majority of the rivets.
Getting the screws out can be a real bitch, but it doesn't involve any
rivets, snaps or duct tape. The composite Cherokee tip tank is another
story-I'd rather have a bladder any day of the week.

BTW, why did you charge yourself labor for changing out a bladder?

TC

Despite Jay's tale of woe, pulling a Cherokee wing tank is a matter of
removing some 10-32 structural machine screws and sliding the whole
thing out (in one piece) out of the wing.

Yeah, other than the last screw not catching a nutplate, it's really
not bad. (If you like Popeye forearms, this is the job for you!) And
it's NOTHING compared to working with a bladder tank, according to my
A&P, a man with 40+ years wrenching.

The composite Cherokee tip tank is another
story-I'd rather have a bladder any day of the week.

Thanks goodness I've not had to deal with those, other than
cosmetically. I'll bet a leak is a real SOB to fix.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"