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Directional control after touchdown...



 
 
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  #1  
Old May 20th 07, 11:57 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
Matt Whiting
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,232
Default Directional control after touchdown...

Private wrote:
"Dan" wrote in message
ps.com...
I've got a question for the group. Suppose you find yourself in the
following situation:

You are flying a C182, landing on runway 22. The ATIS lists the winds
as 240 at 10. The windsock is not visible.

You approach at a normal airspeed, full flaps, coming over the numbers
at 65 kts. The mains touchdown, followed by the nosegear. Slight
right aileron is being maintained into the wind. Everything is
aligned properly and on the centerline at touchdown.

After touchdown the plane starts to drift to the right side of the
runway. You try to correct by pointing the nose back to the
centerline with left rudder. The nose seems to be pointed left, but
the plane is still drifting right. It feels like any more left rudder
could result in bad skidding and/or a ground loop.

What are the proper control inputs to correct the situation?

Left aileron would be in the _opposite_ direction of the indicated
crosswind. Increasing back pressure would make the nosewheel even
less effective.

--Dan


"Kyle Boatright" wrote in message
. ..
This simply illustrates why you can't trust ATIS to give you anything more
than a general sense of the conditions you might encounter. Winds change.
ATIS stations sometimes see different wind conditions than the touchdown
point, due to obstacles and wind direction.

With an ATIS reading of a 20 degree off-centerline, and 10 knots of wind,
I would fly a normal approach and make the corrections necessary to keep
the airplane pointed straight down the runway with no drift during the
flare and landing. I would not pre-suppose anything.

On the other hand, if ATIS was indicating a 90 degree crosswind at 10
knots, and the smoke from chimneys, or waves on a nearby lake, or the
windsock confirmed that information, I would *assume* that I had a
noticeable crosswind to deal with, and would be mentally prepared for
it...

BUT, I'd still wait until final approach to crank in gross corrections to
correct drift, and would apply whatever corrections were necessary in the
flare to keep the airplane aligned and kill any drift.

Bottom line.. ATIS gives you an indication of what the winds were at one
point on the airfield at a given time. The conditions at your touchdown
spot may be different.

KB


I agree with the other good responses in this thread and would only add that
the ATIS is a periodic and not real time report that could IMHE be 1 or more
hours old. I always want to confirm the ATIS by seeing the windsock and
monitoring crab and drift on downwind, base and especially on final.


A wind sock is nice, but entirely optional. If you can't peg the wind
pretty well while flying final, then you need more instruction and more
practice.

Matt
  #2  
Old May 20th 07, 11:32 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
Dudley Henriques[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,546
Default Directional control after touchdown...

This brings out the most important point to be made in this entire thread.
"Let the AIRPLANE tell you what the ACTUAL winds are and fly the approach
and landing doing whatever the AIRPLANE tells you needs to be done for the
wind.
This is cardinal rule 1 for ALL landings and supercedes any and all forecast
and radio transmitted expectation for wind condition and direction.
Dudley Henriques

"Kyle Boatright" wrote in message
. ..
This simply illustrates why you can't trust ATIS to give you anything more
than a general sense of the conditions you might encounter. Winds change.
ATIS stations sometimes see different wind conditions than the touchdown
point, due to obstacles and wind direction.

With an ATIS reading of a 20 degree off-centerline, and 10 knots of wind,
I would fly a normal approach and make the corrections necessary to keep
the airplane pointed straight down the runway with no drift during the
flare and landing. I would not pre-suppose anything.

On the other hand, if ATIS was indicating a 90 degree crosswind at 10
knots, and the smoke from chimneys, or waves on a nearby lake, or the
windsock confirmed that information, I would *assume* that I had a
noticeable crosswind to deal with, and would be mentally prepared for
it...

BUT, I'd still wait until final approach to crank in gross corrections to
correct drift, and would apply whatever corrections were necessary in the
flare to keep the airplane aligned and kill any drift.

Bottom line.. ATIS gives you an indication of what the winds were at one
point on the airfield at a given time. The conditions at your touchdown
spot may be different.

KB

"Dan" wrote in message
ps.com...
I've got a question for the group. Suppose you find yourself in the
following situation:

You are flying a C182, landing on runway 22. The ATIS lists the winds
as 240 at 10. The windsock is not visible.

You approach at a normal airspeed, full flaps, coming over the numbers
at 65 kts. The mains touchdown, followed by the nosegear. Slight
right aileron is being maintained into the wind. Everything is
aligned properly and on the centerline at touchdown.

After touchdown the plane starts to drift to the right side of the
runway. You try to correct by pointing the nose back to the
centerline with left rudder. The nose seems to be pointed left, but
the plane is still drifting right. It feels like any more left rudder
could result in bad skidding and/or a ground loop.

What are the proper control inputs to correct the situation?

Left aileron would be in the _opposite_ direction of the indicated
crosswind. Increasing back pressure would make the nosewheel even
less effective.

--Dan





  #3  
Old May 20th 07, 11:59 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
Matt Whiting
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,232
Default Directional control after touchdown...

Dudley Henriques wrote:
This brings out the most important point to be made in this entire thread.
"Let the AIRPLANE tell you what the ACTUAL winds are and fly the approach
and landing doing whatever the AIRPLANE tells you needs to be done for the
wind.
This is cardinal rule 1 for ALL landings and supercedes any and all forecast
and radio transmitted expectation for wind condition and direction.
Dudley Henriques


Say it again, Dudley! You fly the conditions as they exist, not what
you think they are or wish they were.

Matt
  #4  
Old May 21st 07, 12:30 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
Dudley Henriques[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,546
Default Directional control after touchdown...


"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...
Dudley Henriques wrote:
This brings out the most important point to be made in this entire
thread.
"Let the AIRPLANE tell you what the ACTUAL winds are and fly the approach
and landing doing whatever the AIRPLANE tells you needs to be done for
the wind.
This is cardinal rule 1 for ALL landings and supercedes any and all
forecast and radio transmitted expectation for wind condition and
direction.
Dudley Henriques


Say it again, Dudley! You fly the conditions as they exist, not what you
think they are or wish they were.

Matt


"You fly the conditions as they exist, not what you think they are or wish
they were".
How's that!! :-))
DH


  #5  
Old May 21st 07, 01:51 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
Matt Whiting
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,232
Default Directional control after touchdown...

Dudley Henriques wrote:
"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...
Dudley Henriques wrote:
This brings out the most important point to be made in this entire
thread.
"Let the AIRPLANE tell you what the ACTUAL winds are and fly the approach
and landing doing whatever the AIRPLANE tells you needs to be done for
the wind.
This is cardinal rule 1 for ALL landings and supercedes any and all
forecast and radio transmitted expectation for wind condition and
direction.
Dudley Henriques

Say it again, Dudley! You fly the conditions as they exist, not what you
think they are or wish they were.

Matt


"You fly the conditions as they exist, not what you think they are or wish
they were".
How's that!! :-))
DH



That's a keeper! :-)

Matt
  #7  
Old May 21st 07, 02:25 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
Dan[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 211
Default Directional control after touchdown...

On May 20, 6:09 pm, Dave Doe wrote:
In article om,
says...





I've got a question for the group. Suppose you find yourself in the
following situation:


You are flying a C182, landing on runway 22. The ATIS lists the winds
as 240 at 10. The windsock is not visible.


You approach at a normal airspeed, full flaps, coming over the numbers
at 65 kts. The mains touchdown, followed by the nosegear. Slight
right aileron is being maintained into the wind. Everything is
aligned properly and on the centerline at touchdown.


After touchdown the plane starts to drift to the right side of the
runway. You try to correct by pointing the nose back to the
centerline with left rudder. The nose seems to be pointed left, but
the plane is still drifting right. It feels like any more left rudder
could result in bad skidding and/or a ground loop.


What are the proper control inputs to correct the situation?


Left aileron would be in the _opposite_ direction of the indicated
crosswind.


Regardless, this is the right move (IMO) - as it's possibly caused by
less crosswind down at RWY level - you use aileron to control the drift,
rudder to keep it pointing in the right direction.

--
Duncan- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Thanks. That's exactly what I was getting at. Obviously, I know this
is true when still in the air, but I was not sure if this rule changed
when rolling down the runway...

--Dan

  #8  
Old May 21st 07, 02:45 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
Matt Whiting
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,232
Default Directional control after touchdown...

Dan wrote:
On May 20, 6:09 pm, Dave Doe wrote:
In article om,
says...





I've got a question for the group. Suppose you find yourself in the
following situation:
You are flying a C182, landing on runway 22. The ATIS lists the winds
as 240 at 10. The windsock is not visible.
You approach at a normal airspeed, full flaps, coming over the numbers
at 65 kts. The mains touchdown, followed by the nosegear. Slight
right aileron is being maintained into the wind. Everything is
aligned properly and on the centerline at touchdown.
After touchdown the plane starts to drift to the right side of the
runway. You try to correct by pointing the nose back to the
centerline with left rudder. The nose seems to be pointed left, but
the plane is still drifting right. It feels like any more left rudder
could result in bad skidding and/or a ground loop.
What are the proper control inputs to correct the situation?
Left aileron would be in the _opposite_ direction of the indicated
crosswind.

Regardless, this is the right move (IMO) - as it's possibly caused by
less crosswind down at RWY level - you use aileron to control the drift,
rudder to keep it pointing in the right direction.

--
Duncan- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Thanks. That's exactly what I was getting at. Obviously, I know this
is true when still in the air, but I was not sure if this rule changed
when rolling down the runway...


It changes a lot. Drift is controlled in the air by slipping which
requires bank. Since you can't bank while on the ground, the ailerons
aren't going to do much for drift. They help keep weight on the upwind
wheels to provide better traction and they help keep the wind from
flipping you over, they they don't do squat for drift. That is a
function of rudder and tire traction.

Matt
  #9  
Old May 21st 07, 02:43 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
Matt Whiting
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,232
Default Directional control after touchdown...

Dave Doe wrote:
In article om,
says...
I've got a question for the group. Suppose you find yourself in the
following situation:

You are flying a C182, landing on runway 22. The ATIS lists the winds
as 240 at 10. The windsock is not visible.

You approach at a normal airspeed, full flaps, coming over the numbers
at 65 kts. The mains touchdown, followed by the nosegear. Slight
right aileron is being maintained into the wind. Everything is
aligned properly and on the centerline at touchdown.

After touchdown the plane starts to drift to the right side of the
runway. You try to correct by pointing the nose back to the
centerline with left rudder. The nose seems to be pointed left, but
the plane is still drifting right. It feels like any more left rudder
could result in bad skidding and/or a ground loop.

What are the proper control inputs to correct the situation?

Left aileron would be in the _opposite_ direction of the indicated
crosswind.


Regardless, this is the right move (IMO) - as it's possibly caused by
less crosswind down at RWY level - you use aileron to control the drift,
rudder to keep it pointing in the right direction.


Once you are on the runway, the ailerons aren't going to do much for drift.

Matt
  #10  
Old May 21st 07, 05:22 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
Dave Doe
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 378
Default Directional control after touchdown...

In article ,
says...
Dave Doe wrote:
In article om,
says...
I've got a question for the group. Suppose you find yourself in the
following situation:

You are flying a C182, landing on runway 22. The ATIS lists the winds
as 240 at 10. The windsock is not visible.

You approach at a normal airspeed, full flaps, coming over the numbers
at 65 kts. The mains touchdown, followed by the nosegear. Slight
right aileron is being maintained into the wind. Everything is
aligned properly and on the centerline at touchdown.

After touchdown the plane starts to drift to the right side of the
runway. You try to correct by pointing the nose back to the
centerline with left rudder. The nose seems to be pointed left, but
the plane is still drifting right. It feels like any more left rudder
could result in bad skidding and/or a ground loop.

What are the proper control inputs to correct the situation?

Left aileron would be in the _opposite_ direction of the indicated
crosswind.


Regardless, this is the right move (IMO) - as it's possibly caused by
less crosswind down at RWY level - you use aileron to control the drift,
rudder to keep it pointing in the right direction.


Once you are on the runway, the ailerons aren't going to do much for drift.


They are as you touch down on one wheel - which is where I'm comin from
(the OP can't have much weight on the wheels if the plane is still
drifting as he describes - well that's the way I read it).


--
Duncan
 




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