CFII Before CFI

On Aug 18, 6:32 am, Bob Moore wrote:
Robert M. Gary wrote

If you know that you want to end up with both the CFII and the CFI
(ASEL for instance) then getting the CFII first is probably not a bad
idea because instead of one really hard checkride (the initial CFI)
and then a really easy checkride (the CFII add-on), you have to medium
hard checkrides (CFII initial (including all the FOI), then just the
CFI(ASEL for instance) add on. However, if you get the CFII and quite
w/o getting the CFI-ASEL/AMEL/etc then you have an almost worthless
rating.

It is indeed one of the problems in aviation today that we have
Flight Instructors who do not read and understand the regulations.
We are NOT CFIs nor CFIIs....The FAR defines our certificates as
FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR. In fact, the remainder of the FARs refer to the
requirement for an AUTHORIZED INSTRUCTOR.


Oh, Bob I don't believe you are that dense. You know what the term
CFII means, trying to be a wanna-be lawyer doesn't do anyone any good.
Everyone else understood what I meant because I used normal
terminology. If you dreem of arguing cases before the NTSB you can
keep that to yourself, it doesn't help anyone here understand anything
better.


An obvious error in the quoted text above besides the use of CFI,
is the list of ratings that a Flight Instructor may have on his
Certificate.

An obvious error to the above statement is that no one ever quoted any
list of ratings that a Flight Instructor may have on his Certificate.

BTW: If you send me a private email I can explain to you what the term
"BFR" means when hard at the airport. You'll find that an
understanding of common terminology will help you if you ever encouter
another pilot and need to talk of things aviation.

-Robert, CFII (teaches in LAND AND SEA)

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
ups.com...

If you know that you want to end up with both the CFII and the CFI
(ASEL for instance) then getting the CFII first is probably not a bad
idea because instead of one really hard checkride (the initial CFI)
and then a really easy checkride (the CFII add-on), you have to medium
hard checkrides (CFII initial (including all the FOI), then just the
CFI(ASEL for instance) add on. However, if you get the CFII and quite
w/o getting the CFI-ASEL/AMEL/etc then you have an almost worthless
rating.

Great information. Thanks for this thread, folks...

So, realistically a lot of CFIs are low-time commercial pilots trying to
build hours, which means they can't possibly have a whole lot of instrument
time. For a guy like me who got his instrument shortly before his
commercial, but--having been jamming on the commercial in VFR--hasn't logged
much actual IMC, I don't think it would be appropriate for me to take the
CFII and then try to impart that wisdom on pilots who might conceivably have
two or three times more flight experience than I.

How much experience under IFR/IMC do you guys feel like a person should have
in order to effectively (not just legally) perform as a CFII?

-c

Gattman wrote:
"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
ups.com...

If you know that you want to end up with both the CFII and the CFI
(ASEL for instance) then getting the CFII first is probably not a bad
idea because instead of one really hard checkride (the initial CFI)
and then a really easy checkride (the CFII add-on), you have to
medium hard checkrides (CFII initial (including all the FOI), then
just the CFI(ASEL for instance) add on. However, if you get the CFII
and quite w/o getting the CFI-ASEL/AMEL/etc then you have an almost
worthless rating.

Great information. Thanks for this thread, folks...

So, realistically a lot of CFIs are low-time commercial pilots trying
to build hours, which means they can't possibly have a whole lot of
instrument time. For a guy like me who got his instrument shortly
before his commercial, but--having been jamming on the commercial in
VFR--hasn't logged much actual IMC, I don't think it would be
appropriate for me to take the CFII and then try to impart that
wisdom on pilots who might conceivably have two or three times more
flight experience than I.
How much experience under IFR/IMC do you guys feel like a person
should have in order to effectively (not just legally) perform as a
CFII?
-c

While great to have real world experience there are plenty of people
teaching plenty things with little or no real world experience in the
subject.

"Gig 601XL Builder" wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net wrote in message
...

How much experience under IFR/IMC do you guys feel like a person
should have in order to effectively (not just legally) perform as a
CFII?

While great to have real world experience there are plenty of people
teaching plenty things with little or no real world experience in the
subject.

Right. I took guitar lessons from guys like that when I was a teenager.
So my question stands, or, to rephrase:

If you were sponsoring a student or family member's instrument rating and I
was a candidate for the instructor role, how many hours of IFR/IMC do you
think would be a worthy minimum?

-c

On Aug 20, 8:01 am, "Gattman" wrote:
"Robert M. Gary" wrote in oglegroups.com...

If you know that you want to end up with both the CFII and the CFI
(ASEL for instance) then getting the CFII first is probably not a bad
idea because instead of one really hard checkride (the initial CFI)
and then a really easy checkride (the CFII add-on), you have to medium
hard checkrides (CFII initial (including all the FOI), then just the
CFI(ASEL for instance) add on. However, if you get the CFII and quite
w/o getting the CFI-ASEL/AMEL/etc then you have an almost worthless
rating.

Great information. Thanks for this thread, folks...

So, realistically a lot of CFIs are low-time commercial pilots trying to
build hours, which means they can't possibly have a whole lot of instrument
time. For a guy like me who got his instrument shortly before his
commercial, but--having been jamming on the commercial in VFR--hasn't logged
much actual IMC, I don't think it would be appropriate for me to take the
CFII and then try to impart that wisdom on pilots who might conceivably have
two or three times more flight experience than I.

I think you are assuming that all a CFII does is tell stores of
previous experiences. In fact you'll find that most of the really high
time CFIIs have either very little time flying spam cans in the soup
or never left the safety of the training environment.
In truth CFII's impart much more than stores. Even a very high time
instrument pilot can get very good instruction from a lower time CFII.
How long since that high time pilot shot a non-precision approach, how
long since he's done a hold with on nav radio not working, etc.

-Robert, CFII

"Ol Shy & Bashful" wrote in message
oups.com...
Anyone care to chime in on this one? An applicant going for the CFII
before the CFI. Am in process of doing it right now with a student.
Odd as it may seem.......
Oh Yeh, its for helicopter......

I believe I've heard of pilots getting their CFI-ME before the CFI and
double I.

Kobra

Ol Shy & Bashful wrote:
Anyone care to chime in on this one? An applicant going for the CFII
before the CFI. Am in process of doing it right now with a student.
Odd as it may seem.......
Oh Yeh, its for helicopter......

The only advantage I know is that you can do the briefer instrument
ride with the FAA examiner (most FSDO's require the initial ride
to be done with a real FAA employee) while hte longer category
ride can be done with a DE.

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
...

The only advantage I know is that you can do the briefer instrument
ride with the FAA examiner (most FSDO's require the initial ride
to be done with a real FAA employee) while hte longer category
ride can be done with a DE.

A related strategy is to get a CFI-Glider first and then add airplanes
later. In that case, both of your rides are likely to be with a DE. There are
also some neat jobs out there for CFIGs and commercial tow pilots.

Vaughn