Listening for Quiet

In article . com,
says...


On Oct 11, 9:03 pm, C J Campbell
wrote:

Pilots do try to maintain at least 2000' above wild areas as requested
by the National Park Service. However, planes taking off or landing
obviously are going to have to fly lower than 2000.' There are
additional aircraft that fly lower than 2000' for scientific and law

Where can I find the rules and regulations that specify how high
or low a plane can fly over various terrain, like cities, wilderness,
etc.

AIM


Also, is there an easy way from the ground to measure the height
of a flying plane?

NO

Airbus wrote in :

In article . com,
says...


On Oct 11, 9:03 pm, C J Campbell
wrote:

Pilots do try to maintain at least 2000' above wild areas as requested
by the National Park Service. However, planes taking off or landing
obviously are going to have to fly lower than 2000.' There are
additional aircraft that fly lower than 2000' for scientific and law

Where can I find the rules and regulations that specify how high
or low a plane can fly over various terrain, like cities, wilderness,
etc.

AIM


Also, is there an easy way from the ground to measure the height
of a flying plane?

NO



Actually, the FARs rule, not the AIM.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

On 2007-10-12 14:56:44 -0700, daffy said:

On Oct 11, 9:03 pm, C J Campbell
wrote:

Pilots do try to maintain at least 2000' above wild areas as requested
by the National Park Service. However, planes taking off or landing
obviously are going to have to fly lower than 2000.' There are
additional aircraft that fly lower than 2000' for scientific and law

Where can I find the rules and regulations that specify how high
or low a plane can fly over various terrain, like cities, wilderness,
etc.
Also, is there an easy way from the ground to measure the height
of a flying plane?

The Federal Aviation Regulations can be found in most bookstores and
pilot shops. However, there really aren't many rules.

Federal Aviation Regulation 91.119 spells out the minimum safe altitude
for VFR aircraft. Remember, this is a safety rule, not a noise
abatement rule (although crashing airplanes are pretty noisy):
----------
§*91.119***Minimum safe altitudes: General.
Except when necessary for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an
aircraft below the following altitudes:
(a) Anywhere. An altitude allowing, if a power unit fails, an emergency
landing without undue hazard to persons or property on the surface.
(b) Over congested areas. Over any congested area of a city, town, or
settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons, an altitude of
1,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal radius of
2,000 feet of the aircraft.
(c) Over other than congested areas. An altitude of 500 feet above the
surface, except over open water or sparsely populated areas. In those
cases, the aircraft may not be operated closer than 500 feet to any
person, vessel, vehicle, or structure.
(d) Helicopters. Helicopters may be operated at less than the minimums
prescribed in paragraph (b) or (c) of this section if the operation is
conducted without hazard to persons or property on the surface. In
addition, each person operating a helicopter shall comply with any
routes or altitudes specifically prescribed for helicopters by the
Administrator.
----------

As you can see, the above is a general rule. There are numerous
exceptions. Some areas are restricted airspace and have their own
minimum altitude requirements. Also, some wildlife areas, including all
of Olympic National Park, as well as almost all other state and
national parks, nature preserves, and so forth, 'request' that, except
when taking off and landing, you remain 2000 feet above them. Note that
this is a request. It does not have the force of law and it is not a
regulation. There are many reasons it cannot be made a regulation.
However, a pilot who regularly violates this request without a very
good reason is likely to get a phone call from park officials. Since no
one goes and paints a blue dotted line on the ground around all these
areas, pilots who are unfamiliar with an area may inadvertently fly too
low over a preserve.

We also are subject to the same rules as everyone else about
approaching marine mammals too closely or harassing them. When we are
on the water we are boats and are governed by the Coast Guard and have
the same rules as all other boats.

Some Wilderness Areas have airfields in them, although they are rare
and maintained for historic reasons, fire-fighting, or some sort of
compromise worked out with pilots and other interest groups in order to
get the area designated as wilderness. The USDA Forest Service is
usually responsible for these fields and they are generally run with a
strict view to minimizing the impact on wilderness.

Due to the fact that planes come in all shapes, colors and sizes there
is no good way to tell how high they are or how far away they are.
Airplanes can appear to be closer or farther away at different times of
the day or night and in different weather, too. This is a big issue
with pilots. After all, we do not want to run into each other and some
simple method of determining how far away a plane is would be quite
welcome. Besides, we don't like being buzzed by low flying planes any
more than anyone else. If we want to see low flying planes we go to the
airport. Pilots don't like jerks and we have ways of dealing with them.

Although everyone, including the pilots, find airplane noise
objectionable, aircraft are possibly the ultimate in leave-no-trace
visits to parks. Many pilots are rabid environmentalists because we see
the overall effects of environmental damage that are not visible or
difficult to comprehend from the ground. It is not difficult, for
example, to see what parts of Hood Canal are dead or dying, or where a
forest is blighted. We can also see the trash left by humans
everywhere, the bears rummaging through it, and the results of drunken
nitwits who are careless with fire. We can see where criminals have
cleared off public forest lands in order to raise pot. If noisy
airplanes bother you, come for a ride and most of us can show you stuff
that will really raise your blood pressure.

You are possibly aware that large areas of Olympic National Park may
have to be closed to hiking. Much of the forest is dying, as are many
of the meadows, because people have packed down the earth around the
trees and left human excrement several inches deep covering several
acres around the beaches and other popular spots. Some of that silence
you hear is the silence of death. No birds. No animals. Hardly even a
leaf stirring. Think about it.

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

daffy wrote:
Quite a good article in the Nov/Dec AARP magazine titled "Listening
for Quiet".
It talks about a silent sanctuary in Washington's Olympic National
park. The article concluded by someone complaining about the silence broken by a small
plane.

I love flying but I also love wilderness camping. Although I would not
vote to ban aircraft from flying over unpopulated areas, I would rather
not hear them when I'm enjoying the wilderness.

In a similar way, I enjoy both fly fishing and white-water canoeing,
although the two are incompatible.

I suggest we simply need to develop a tolerance, or perhaps respect, for
the other fellow's recreation even if it occasionally interferes with ours.

The article said "The small plane flying north more than doubles the
ambient sound....

Well, if really was "a silent sanctuary," then doubling the sound would
not make much difference: two times zero decibels = zero decibels.

vince norris




, and we react to the intruder as a threat, drawing in, tracking the
source, hunching for
cover until the last traces of engine noise finally die away."

vincent norris writes:

Well, if really was "a silent sanctuary," then doubling the sound would
not make much difference: two times zero decibels = zero decibels.

The sound level outdoors is rarely zero. And decibels are a log scale, so a
doubling of sound intensity is always an increase of 3 decibels, irrespective
of the starting sound level. It is hard to even perceive an increase of 3
decibels.

Mxsmanic wrote in
:

vincent norris writes:

Well, if really was "a silent sanctuary," then doubling the sound
would not make much difference: two times zero decibels = zero
decibels.

The sound level outdoors is rarely zero. And decibels are a log
scale, so a doubling of sound intensity is always an increase of 3
decibels, irrespective of the starting sound level. It is hard to
even perceive an increase of 3 decibels.




Fjukkwit.


Bertie

In article ,
says...


vincent norris writes:

Well, if really was "a silent sanctuary," then doubling the sound would
not make much difference: two times zero decibels = zero decibels.



The sound level outdoors is rarely zero.

TRUE

And decibels are a log scale, so a
doubling of sound intensity is always an increase of 3 decibels, irrespective
of the starting sound level.

TRUE


It is hard to even perceive an increase of 3 decibels.

FALSE