December 6,1941

Keith Willshaw wrote:
"Bernardz" wrote in message
news:MPG.1a1cc45edfb975c29896ec@news...
In article , jdupre5762
@aol.com says...
I have often wondered. Given a 24 hour advanced notice that an attack
was eminent in 72 hours or less, what would have been the outcome at
Pearl Harbor? Say on dec 6, Pearl was given intel that an attack would
come anytime in the next 72 hours.

It might well have been worse in some ways. I understand that part of
the Navy's planning was to move the fleet out of the harbor to a
different anchorage that was much deeper. So if some of the ships
could have been torpedoed or sunk by bombs there they might well have
been unrecoverable.

The anchorage in question was off of Lahaina (Maui).

Were any of the ships that were recovered worth much anyway?


Hell yes, they were used throughout the later part of the war.

Mostly for pre-invasion bombardment. Which had effects that were
decidedly debatable. Did rattle the defenders' cages if nothing else.

Most of the effort that went into recovery was done for national pride
to deny the Japanese as much of a victory as possible.


Perhaps but do recall that the ships in the USN line at the battle
of the Surigao Strait, part of the largest naval battle of WW2
was made up of Battleships salvaged from Pearl Harbor.

Well, two "salvaged" (West Virginia and California) and three repaired
(Maryland and Tennessee were inboard of West Virginia & California,
Pennsylvania was already in drydock on 7 December).

Revenge was sweet that day.

Damn straight, even though it was a bit one-sided - six battleships
mounting a total of 58 large-caliber guns, vs. 1 battleship, 1 cruiser &
1 destroyer (the rest of the Southern Force had been taken out by
torpedo attacks from PT boats and destroyers.). The Battle Line opened
fire at 0353 and had pretty much obliterated the one Japanese battleship
by 0408, when the Cease Fire was passed. The cruiser (the eternally
battered Mogami) and destroyer retreated with heavy damage, only to be
sunk by aircraft the following morning.

(There, I got a military aviation reference in the last sentence.)

-Marc
--
Marc Reeve
actual email address after removal of 4s & spaces is
c4m4r4a4m4a4n a4t c4r4u4z4i4o d4o4t c4o4m

(Marc Reeve) wrote in
:
Keith Willshaw wrote:
"Bernardz" wrote:

Most of the effort that went into recovery was done for national
pride to deny the Japanese as much of a victory as possible.

Perhaps but do recall that the ships in the USN line at the battle
of the Surigao Strait, part of the largest naval battle of WW2
was made up of Battleships salvaged from Pearl Harbor.

Well, two "salvaged" (West Virginia and California) and three
repaired (Maryland and Tennessee were inboard of West Virginia &
California, Pennsylvania was already in drydock on 7 December).

Well, Pennsylvania never actually had a chance to fire her guns at
Surigao Strait, so it could be argued that she didn't really "take part"
in the battle.

Bernardz wrote:

Were any of the ships that were recovered worth much anyway?


If my brains cells aren't totally rotted away, I believe they were used
for pre-invasion bombardment in the island hopping campaigns. While big
gun cruisers were the norm in WW II, a battleship can throw a lot of
metal.


Most of the effort that went into recovery was done for national pride
to deny the Japanese as much of a victory as possible.


National pride was an important issue, but was the space needed to keep
the harbor open to refit and provision other ships? If battleship row
was unavailable, how many ships could Pearl Harbor support in a timely
fashion?

my 0.02

MAH

Most of the effort that went into recovery was done for national pride
to deny the Japanese as much of a victory as possible.


National pride was an important issue, but was the space needed to keep
the harbor open to refit and provision other ships? If battleship row
was unavailable, how many ships could Pearl Harbor support in a timely
fashion?

I doubt that they were worth the money.

They were used apparently a lot of money was spent on California, West
Virginia and Nevada. A lot was lost on the Oglala when she went down.

Bit of the Cassin and the Downes were put into new ships just to taunt
the Japanese.


my 0.02

MAH


--
People are not apathetic in a bookie shop.

13th saying of Bernard

On 12 Nov 2003 00:16:58 GMT, (JDupre5762) wrote:

I have often wondered. Given a 24 hour advanced notice that an attack
was eminent in 72 hours or less, what would have been the outcome at
Pearl Harbor? Say on dec 6, Pearl was given intel that an attack would
come anytime in the next 72 hours.

It might well have been worse in some ways. I understand that part of the
Navy's planning was to move the fleet out of the harbor to a different
anchorage that was much deeper. So if some of the ships could have been
torpedoed or sunk by bombs there they might well have been unrecoverable.

John Dupre'

And what anchorage would that be?? The Hawaiian Island are rather remote.

Al Minyard

Alan Minyard wrote:
On 12 Nov 2003 00:16:58 GMT, (JDupre5762) wrote:

I have often wondered. Given a 24 hour advanced notice that an attack
was eminent in 72 hours or less, what would have been the outcome at
Pearl Harbor? Say on dec 6, Pearl was given intel that an attack would
come anytime in the next 72 hours.

It might well have been worse in some ways. I understand that part of the
Navy's planning was to move the fleet out of the harbor to a different
anchorage that was much deeper. So if some of the ships could have been
torpedoed or sunk by bombs there they might well have been unrecoverable.

John Dupre'

And what anchorage would that be?? The Hawaiian Island are rather remote.

On exercises, the Pacific Fleet frequently anchored off Lahaina (Maui)
rather than returning to Pearl Harbor. This is probably the "other
anchorage" that Dupre' is referencing. And the water is a lot deeper off
of Lahaina, for sure...

-Marc
--
Marc Reeve
actual email address after removal of 4s & spaces is
c4m4r4a4m4a4n a4t c4r4u4z4i4o d4o4t c4o4m

BOB URZ writes:

I have often wondered. Given a 24 hour advanced notice that an attack
was eminent in 72 hours or less, what would have been the outcome at
Pearl Harbor? Say on dec 6, Pearl was given intel that an attack would
come anytime in the next 72 hours.

What could have been done differently to affect the outcome?

If the fleet had been dispersed, the attackers might have gone
after the fuel storage area. If I recall, it was mostly above ground.


http://www.cpf.navy.mil/pearlharbor/...ilability.html


During the attack on Pearl Harbor, the fuel tank farm at
the Pearl Harbor Navy Supply Depot was a strategic target
that was extremely vulnerable but was not attached and
remained undamaged through two waves of bombing.

This tank farm held the entire fuel oil supply for the
United States Pacific Fleet. A single bomb could have
destroyed over four and a half million barrels of oil and
would have prolonged the war for years, according to Admiral
Chester Nimitz.
--
A host is a host from coast to
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Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

"David Lesher" wrote in message
...
BOB URZ writes:

I have often wondered. Given a 24 hour advanced notice that an attack
was eminent in 72 hours or less, what would have been the outcome at
Pearl Harbor? Say on dec 6, Pearl was given intel that an attack would
come anytime in the next 72 hours.

What could have been done differently to affect the outcome?

If the fleet had been dispersed, the attackers might have gone
after the fuel storage area. If I recall, it was mostly above ground.


http://www.cpf.navy.mil/pearlharbor/...ilability.html


During the attack on Pearl Harbor, the fuel tank farm at
the Pearl Harbor Navy Supply Depot was a strategic target
that was extremely vulnerable but was not attached and
remained undamaged through two waves of bombing.

This tank farm held the entire fuel oil supply for the
United States Pacific Fleet. A single bomb could have
destroyed over four and a half million barrels of oil and
would have prolonged the war for years, according to Admiral
Chester Nimitz.

It's only been in recent years (late 1990s?) that the US declassed
that there were underground fuel tanks in the mountains around
Pearl Harbor and they had been there '41. I seem to recall reports
of the fuel stored in them on Dec 7th, '41, but I don't recall what
it was.

"BOB URZ" wrote in message
...
I have often wondered. Given a 24 hour advanced notice that an attack
was eminent in 72 hours or less, what would have been the outcome at
Pearl Harbor? Say on dec 6, Pearl was given intel that an attack would
come anytime in the next 72 hours.

Depends on if it was clear the attack was by air instead of clandestine.
The area commanders were preparing for sabotage which had the
effect of creating excellent targets. Convince them the attack was
coming from carrier aircraft and lots changes.

What could have been done differently to affect the outcome?

Disperse the air assets, fly CAP, sortie the fleet and have AAA
emplacements set, armed and manned. PAY ATTENTION to the
radar crew.
There are other things you would do, such as moving the army into
defensive positions, that as history played out wouldn't have meant
much but could have under different circumstances.

Granted at that point in the war, some of the hardware was not up
to snuff with the Japanese. With a 24 hour warning, how many fighter
aircraft could have been prepared, armed, and either flying or on
alert? What (if any) could have been used for night operations?

Catalinas for patrol, nobody was going to attack Pearl at night in '41:
that would have required night carrier ops.

What would have been the likely outcome of an even plane
dogfight scenario?

Given the 24 hour warning time, where would you position the
carriers that were out at sea and why? Offensive or defensive?

With as many other surface combatants as I could round up.
If I then have time to position that group I'ld try for a place off
to the side of the expected approach so as to be able to trail
enemy planes back to their fleet.
As I recall it, one of the carriers was coming back from a delivery
run dropping off aircraft at Wake(?); that ship would need fighter
flown out to it.

What about the surface ships in the harbor. In or out?

Out, moving targets are harder to hit -if they can be found at all-,
have freer use of their AA guns and they can try to intercept the
Japanese fleet.

Was there better way to position them against air attack?

What combination of aircraft could have been marshalled for an
offensive strike against the carrier group at the range they
were at? Were there enough trained aviators to even attempt this
at this time? Were the Japanese aviators better trained and equipped
at this point in the war?

Would the crude land based radar have been any major help with the
advanced warning and defensive attack ?

The radar historically picked up the inbound attack flight and the
information was called in to head quarters, it was dismissed.
Acted on in real history a lot more American fighters could have
been gotten into the air which would have decreased the efficiency of
the attack. An effective defense could have been attempted. Given a
24 or more hours of head start the US fleet would have taken
trivial losses compared to reality; perhaps the USS Arizona could
have sailed to Coregidor before it fell.

Would the US fleet have attempted to put to sea to go after the Japanese
task force, or stay close in for the defense against the possible
invasion of Hawaii? Was the fleet safer at sea knowing the
japs were coming, or safer in the harbor?

They would likely have attempted to engage the op fleet but not chased
them more than a day or two. 24 hours is short notice to provision
the entire Pacific fleet in Pearl Harbor and concern for undetected
invasion fleets would be in everybodys' mind.

In message , John Keeney
writes
Catalinas for patrol, nobody was going to attack Pearl at night in '41:
that would have required night carrier ops.

Taranto was a night raid... it could be done, it _had_ been done.

--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk