Interested in soaring safety? Read this

The problem with "check lists" is that 99% of the time they are used as "do
lists" as in "shopping list".

They are not called "do lists" for a reason. You are supposed to be able to
perform all tasks on the list from memory and then check yourself with the
list. This way, in an emergency when you don't have time to find a list and
read it, you are likely to do the right things.

Used as "do lists" they are just a crutch. Used correctly as check lists,
they do add to safety.

I do my lists from memory and then scan the checklist to make sure I haven't
forgotten anything.

Bill Daniels




"Ramy" wrote in message
...
On Dec 15, 6:14 am, Martin Gregorie
wrote:
Ramy wrote:
On Dec 14, 3:20 pm, tommytoyz wrote:
The point is to not assume that you will never forget a vital
function, no matter how good a pilot you think you are.

Or rather, that it is assured that at some point, everyone will forget
something ans so the importance of the checklist and that the ego in
us will always try to convince us the opposite.

I don't think anyone questions the importance of checklists, the
problem is how to enforce yourself to use it, and use it correctly.
There is much higher chance to forget using a checklist, or skip an
item in the checklist, than making any other mistakes. Especially the
landing checklist, any distraction and the first thing to go will
likely be the checklist. Any ideas how to make sure you never skip an
item on the landing checklist?

Dymotape "WUF" (or whatever your acronym of choice is) onto the panel?

Now, if somebody could come up with a good acronym for a dry, unflapped
glider.... ULT (Undercarriage, Lookout, Trim) is about all I can come up
with.

--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yeah, but my point is, how can you make sure you will follow the
checklist on the panel when something goes wrong or distructs you.
After all, this is when we get in trouble, when something else goes
wrong.

Ramy

On Dec 16, 7:08 am, jcarlyle wrote:
Pete, what does the mnenomic TWA stand for?

-John

On Dec 16, 3:44 am, 309 wrote:

Keep the mnemonics (USTALL, TWA, GUMP) as safety nets.

TWA = Traffic, Wind, Altimeter (or Altitude)
GUMP = Gas, Undercarriage, Mixture, Prop (obviously for Power)
USTALL = Undercarriage, Speed, Trim, Airbrakes, Lookout, Land
see http://www.soaringsafety.org/images/ustall.jpg for a USTALL poster

I find myself using GUMP even in my 1-26...obviously completing that
checklist is very quick...and it prompts me to remember the other
two...which are similarly quick (Trim on a 1-26 is of marginal utility
on approach).

Nevertheless, they get me set up for safe landings...whatever I'm
flying!

-Pete

On Dec 16, 9:33 am, Ian wrote:
There's also a question about when they are appropriate. Would anyone
here use a checklist for thermalling? I once had someone try to
convince me to use a check list for a winch launch cable break[*] -
is that a good use of the couple of seconds available for reaction?

Probably not. But it probably *is* useful as part of the
last E in cb-sift-cbe.

On Dec 16, 9:00 am, Cats wrote:
One of the key things seemed to be empowering the nurses to prompt the
doctors where necessary - they often knew the doctors were not
following the procedure but for various reasons didn't intervene. (In
fact I read it that they ended up with a 'checklist' nurse who checked
it all on a clipboard as the procedure was executed)

Yes, exactly.

The same occurs
on the flight deck - there have been accidents with commercial traffic
where the FO has realised something is wrong and either not told the
PIC or been overruled.

A famous such crash occurred near to me - the PapaIndia Trident
crash at Staines. Cause was overbearing P1 that was subtly
incapacitated by a heart attack; P1 overruled the P2 and the Trident
entered a deep stall.

Thanks, Pete. I use USTALL on every approach set-up, and have heard
GUMPS, although as a non-power pilot I've never used it. But I've
never run across TWA, and I wonder why - it seems very, very important
for any landing! Thanks for educating me, and giving me a checklist
I'll be doing on all future approach set-ups.

-John

On Dec 16, 11:52 am, 309 wrote:
TWA = Traffic, Wind, Altimeter (or Altitude)
GUMP = Gas, Undercarriage, Mixture, Prop (obviously for Power)
USTALL = Undercarriage, Speed, Trim, Airbrakes, Lookout, Land
seehttp://www.soaringsafety.org/images/ustall.jpgfor a USTALL poster

Great discussion so far.

A couple points...

In soaring we DO have crew particularly in the staging, take-off, and
tow phase. We sometimes have crew during landing as well if there is
a ground crew with radio. So, crew resource management has great
value in soaring operations and should be utilized.

One of the jobs crew can perform is making sure pilots complete their
checklists; Critical Assembly Checks, Positive Control Checks, and, if
done out-loud, pre take-off checklist. Teach your ground crew not to
hook-up a towline until they hear the pilot complete the checklist.

In-cockpit checklists for glider ops should be done from memory (pre
take-off, landing, off-airport landing) WUFSTALL can be completed
easily in 20 seconds if done from memory and at the approapriate time
during the approach.

CBSIFTCB plus WET (wind, emergency procedures, traffic) takes less
than a half a minute to SAY OUT LOUD and verify or touch each item. I
teach to say "Emergency below 200 ft lower the nose land ahead, above
200 lower the nose, land ahead or behind". Anything more is either
too much, takes too long, or just simply too confusing for the reptile
brain that will be trying to accomplish it during a real emergency.

On the last item, Traffic, make eye contact with the ground crew who
should now be patiently waiting at your wing tip and say TRAFFIC and
look around to remind them to look around for you. This is crew
resource management. It takes no extra time and gets everyone
watching each others back. There is no excuse for taking-off with
canopys unlatched, controls not hooked-up.

Look for other ways in which CRM can be utilized in soaring operations
and share them with others here.

Matt Michael

Ian wrote:

Jack wrote:

False. Though we may have a crew to share the load, it takes more time
to work with a crew. The time available to provide a solution is often
inversely related to the size of the problem.

The pros flying commercial jets /do/ have more time to deal with check
lists because (a) the person flying the aircraft doesn't necessarily
have to have anything to do with the checklisting (b) they have
autopilots and (c) they don't need to look out.

Those are all very nice things to have--some of them are even true. Of
course there are checklists, and then there are checklists--and many
different kinds of problems to be encountered. We do in fact make an
effort to slow things down and create more time to do checklists, both
written and mental, when possible. The study of crew coordination, and
use of all the crew's resources, has become a science--and a new respect
for the art of cockpit resource management permeates the industry. It
appears you believe the foregoing is somehow an argument against using
checklists in other types of aircraft. I think it should, for those with
open minds, describe the importance to professionals of defining the
proper use of check lists and training oneself and others in using
checklists appropriately.

(a) The removal of the flying pilot from the checklist loop is not a
smart idea, though he cannot give full attention to it. He must be aware
of what is happening with regard to the problem-solving process and
participate in it to an appropriate extent, without ever being
distracted from aircraft control. Doing the checklist is the easy part.

(b) The autopilots usually work--but not always. There was no checklist,
as I remember it (retired now for five years), for loss of all autopilot
function. What do you suppose we would do then--possibly refer to a
mental "checklist" of things which must be approached in a different
manner in order to insure a successful outcome?

(c) There are times when less visual clearing is necessary than at other
times. You may have seen a crew paying less attention to what's going on
outside periodically during the high altitude cruise portion of a
flight. That too is human nature, but there are very few times when it
is appropriate to ignore what's happening outside for more than a few
seconds. There are some quite infamous examples where that has been
disastrously demonstrated.


The best glider pilots I have flown with do use checklists appropriate
to gliders and use them in a manner which enhances the safety and
efficiency of glider operations. And I base my evaluation of their
abilities on far more than their use of checklists, by the way--in case
you perceive me as some sort of anal procedural-minded robot. I doubt
that those I have flown with would agree with such a perception.

Though it has been decades since I last flew a military fighter (the
F-100) it is my understanding that military pilot training has adapted
in similar fashion and parallels airline training with regard to use of
checklists and resource management. These principles are not new
however, only the system's acknowledgment that the scientific approach
to resource management is superior to the old model is new (relative to
the mindset of a half-century ago).

When there is only one crew member, no autopilot, and very little that
can possibly go wrong with the ship, what is different but the number of
checklists and their length? Do the principles change? I think not.



I'm basing this on a few jump seat trips (in the Good Old Days), but I
have never had time in a glider to take my hands off the controls,
focus wholly on the inside of the cockpit and go through a seventeen
point check list.

Of course, I don't have the advantage of a perspective on these matters
gained from a few jump seat trips. I've spent far too many hours in
jump-seats, though perhaps just the right amount of hours in right- and
left- and only-seats. And it is possible I've encountered a
seventeen-point checklist along the way, but I don't remember any. I do
remember very well the efforts to shorten the checklists, as well as to
reduce the number of items which must be committed to memory. That was,
and is, a good thing.

If you have never had occasion to remove your hands from the flight
controls in a glider, perhaps you should try to relax more. The ship
sometimes does better on its own, at least for me.



Incidentally, you say that "checklists ... should alway be used". Do
you have a checklist for joining thermals? For thermal centring? For
stall recovery? For dolphin flying?

I think one could answer, "Yes", to your question, but only in the most
pedantic sense. You will, upon rereading, perhaps note that I did not
say that there should be a checklist for every action--nor every
consideration--that a pilot undertakes. I do have both mental and
written checklists for certain phases of flight. The written ones are
very few, and very short. The challenge is to use them, always, because
it is my nature, as with most humans, to think in the moment that I
don't need them. Flying a glider is, I'm sure you will agree, a very
simple sort of flying. It can be deceptively so. One needs only to
forget a single item to ruin ones day.

If a checklist is defined for a given phase of your operation, then use
it--or not, since we are unlikely ever to fly together, or even in the
same area. If I was instructing and/or giving check-rides in gliders I
would require the use of a written checklist for certain aspects of
pre-flight, in-flight, and post-flight operations. You would likely not
be pleased to be in the other seat, but I can live with that.


Jack

On 16 Dec, 19:19, J a c k wrote:

I think it should, for those with
open minds, describe the importance to professionals of defining the
proper use of check lists and training oneself and others in using
checklists appropriately.

We are in complete agreement, you know. I don't think either of us
would substitute "indiscriminately" for "appropriately", would we?

The best glider pilots I have flown with do use checklists appropriate
to gliders and use them in a manner which enhances the safety and
efficiency of glider operations.

How would you define "best glider pilots" there? I have flown a few
times with a world champion, and he did not ask for any more than the
usual two BGA mnemonics.

When there is only one crew member, no autopilot, and very little that
can possibly go wrong with the ship, what is different but the number of
checklists and their length? Do the principles change? I think not.

That's perhaps a little evasive, since the number and length may
change drastically in such circumstances. But yes, the principal of
"use checklists when appropriate" holds good!

I think one could answer, "Yes", to your question, but only in the most
pedantic sense. You will, upon rereading, perhaps note that I did not
say that there should be a checklist for every action--nor every
consideration--that a pilot undertakes.

We agree there as well.

If a checklist is defined for a given phase of your operation, then use
it--or not, since we are unlikely ever to fly together, or even in the
same area. If I was instructing and/or giving check-rides in gliders I
would require the use of a written checklist for certain aspects of
pre-flight, in-flight, and post-flight operations. You would likely not
be pleased to be in the other seat, but I can live with that.

I'm a bit worried by this "if there is a checklist, use it" approach.
Now that I've told you about the NARSTI checklist for winch cable
breaks, will you always use it?

Please don't get me wrong. I'm not agin' the things - but I am agin'
unquestioning acceptance of anything while flying. Except spin
recovery!

Ian

On 16 Dec, 18:13, wrote:

One of the jobs crew can perform is making sure pilots complete their
checklists; Critical Assembly Checks, Positive Control Checks, and, if
done out-loud, pre take-off checklist. Teach your ground crew not to
hook-up a towline until they hear the pilot complete the checklist.

One club I fly with has a column in the launch log for "positive
control checks completed" and won't launch you until this has been
done (once per day) at the launch point. I think that's a jolly good
idea.

I teach to say "Emergency below 200 ft lower the nose land ahead, above
200 lower the nose, land ahead or behind".

How accurate are your altimeters during a winch launch?

Ian

On 16 Dec, 15:39, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
The problem with "check lists" is that 99% of the time they are used as "do
lists" as in "shopping list".

Absolutely. I was taught "put the wheel down when you decide to land,
no matter how high" and "check that it's down in the circuit". I am
amazed at the number of people who wait until the last minute or two
of flight to put the wheel down, and I have seen one serious crash as
a result.

Ian