Teaching Incremental Flaps in the Pattern

On Tue, 4 Mar 2008 10:43:58 -0800, "Bob Gardner"
wrote:

Would this specific instruction include full flaps abeam the numbers? With
any airplane? I think the "hard on the motor" argument is bogus. Beech
doesn't build airplanes with pre-loaded failure modes.

Agreed.
As I said in another post. 1300 hours, two sets of tires and no
problems with the flap motor. Nor have I ever seen any bulletins on
flap motor problems. At one time there was an AD about split flaps
but it was rescinded as they have more than enough aileron authority
to overcome a full split flap situation. (Might be exciting
thoughg)


Bob Gardner

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
...
On Mar 4, 9:07 am, "Bob Gardner" wrote:
I am reluctant to teach anything that should "always" be used.

I agree with you in principle but from a practical point student
pilots need to start with very, very specific instruction before they
have the tools and expand into these types of judgements. If you don't
give students specific airspeeds to hit in the pattern they will
always have problems with landings. 9 times out of 10 when a student
pilot is having trouble landing all I do is sit in the right seat and
say "ok, what speed are you suppose to be at here?" and let them do
the rest.

-Robert
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On Tue, 4 Mar 2008 13:33:14 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Mar 4, 1:43 pm, "Bob Gardner" wrote:
Would this specific instruction include full flaps abeam the numbers? With
any airplane? I think the "hard on the motor" argument is bogus. Beech
doesn't build airplanes with pre-loaded failure modes.

Bob Gardner


Apparently people with much more Beechcraft experience than I assert
that on-off-on is hard on that flap motor. The piano keys certainly
aren't designed to facilitate that method, either.

You get used to it. The switch will probably fail long before the
flap motor.



Dan


Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On Tue, 04 Mar 2008 18:11:59 GMT, "JGalban via AviationKB.com"
u32749@uwe wrote:

Bob Gardner wrote:
I am reluctant to teach anything that should "always" be used. Flaps are a
tool, and we learn early on in life that there are many ways to use a tool
to achieve different results.

I agree. I usually use multiple flap extensions at my home airport. Lots
of student traffic, so there's really no point in slowing down early and
flying a wide pattern behind a bunch of students emulating 747s. On the
other hand, when I fly into small strips with tall obstructions, I drop full
flaps abeam and fly a slow, tight, steep pattern all the way around. It

Why? The Bo is a great short field airplane that can slow rapidly. I
fly down wind pretty much the same. If it's tight, I dump the gear at
the end of the runway. From that point I use the appropriate amount of
flaps and size my pattern accordingly.(With full flaps it'll be short
and close) If necessary I can go full flaps (40 degrees on those big
barn doors is EFFECTIVE) right after gear down as it'll slow so
quickly with the gear down the flap speed is no problem. At that point
I can simply make a slipping U-turn from pattern altitude on a *close*
down wind to the end of the runway and my speed will be down to less
than 80 at the round out. With practice I can make it over the so
called 50 foot obstacle, at the end of the runway and still make the
first turnoff at 800 feet when alone. That PA28-180 can do it in
even less distance with those Johnson bar flaps.

makes speed control a lot easier in tight places. Different procedures for
different conditions.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)
BTW the Deb has the same wing loading as the PA28-180 give or take
change (17#/ ft^2. The earlier V35s had even less.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On Wed, 5 Mar 2008 12:26:34 -0800 (PST), Dan
wrote:

On Mar 5, 1:29 pm, "JGalban via AviationKB.com" u32749@uwe wrote:
wrote:

Wait -- why would your second method cause you to "Slow down and fly a
wide pattern"?

The traffic at the airport necessitates flying a relatively large crowded
pattern. There's no real point dropping full flaps and slowing down to
approach speed if you're going to be flying a big pattern behind several
other aircraft. For me, it works out better to keep the speed up and slow
incrementally, depending on what the traffic ahead is doing.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

--
Message posted via AviationKB.comhttp://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/aviation/200803/1

In that case, I see the point. "Extend your final" means I'm
maintaining my downwind airspeed and altitude until I hear "Follow the
Mooney on Final."

I'm no longer in a standard pattern, and so the full flaps come later
-- probably on final. The question remains -- why not full flaps
instead of incremental flaps?

For one, the airplane glides a whole lot better clean. Two,it's a
whole lot more efficient and three: if there are planes flying a two
mile down wind to base and a mile wide base there is no rule you have
to follow them if you can make final before any one else turns final.
That close in you can be down and clear the runway before any one is
even close to the airport. It becomes a necessity when sharing the
airport with crop dusters and students.



Dan
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On Wed, 5 Mar 2008 05:02:34 -0800 (PST), Dan
wrote:

On Mar 5, 7:51 am, Denny wrote:
My Apache does not have fixed flap positions, and full down flap
results in such an exteme nose down attitude that it makes the
passengers think you are dive bombing the airport I kinda like it...
As a result I routinely use partial flaps... A little bit on downwind
to help slow the fatboy to 110 indicated, a bit more on base to give
me 100 on the speedo, and final depends on the amount of wind and the
angle to the runway... There is a flap position indicator on the
panel but it is just this side of useless - besides being 3 feet away
on the other side of the cockpit... I look over my shoulder as I lower
the flap and set it by eyeball and feel... On a dark night I set it by
the feel and experience...

I agree that students and low time pilots need fixed flap settings at
specific points int he pattern...

denny

Twins are a little different as you have the approach speed argument
to settle first -- do you want enough speed/energy to maintain Vmc? If
so, full flaps will likely require a steep descent as you're
describing.

Besides, if you're flying a twin you're beyond student pilot days and
thus are working on art -- adapting the rules to fit the situation.

I would hope students are too. At least well before the checkride. My
instructors had me weaned off the stabilized pattern before they let
me solo. Good thing too.




Dan


Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On Mar 6, 1:50 am, Roger wrote:

It shouldn't be. As I said earlier. Just fly the figures in the POH as

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)www.rogerhalstead.com

Thanks for the good feedback based on experience.

But I have a few questions/comments ---

1) We replaced the flap actuator assembly this November (last
replacement was ~400 hours ago), so I'm sensitive to breaking it.

2) There is no POH for the '47. There is an "Owner's Manual" that
looks like something you used to get with a new Ford. There is scant
data on takeoff and landing configurations, only speeds.

3) How do you know you have 15 degrees of flaps? Sure you can "Compare
to aileron travel" to get an idea on the ground, but you cannot be
that precise in flight.

4) I don't know what you mean by "Why trim after each flap change? You
aren't flying a Cessna". I find (as expected) that after each Power/
Attitude/Configuration change, there's a subsequent trim adjustment --
in any airplane.

5) 80 MPH on final seems fast, when 1.3 Vso = 62 MPH (flaps down,
power off stall speed = 47 MPH). I target 65 on short final and
usually land and stop within 1500'.


Dan

On Thu, 6 Mar 2008 04:25:36 -0800 (PST), Dan
wrote:

On Mar 6, 1:50 am, Roger wrote:

It shouldn't be. As I said earlier. Just fly the figures in the POH as

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)www.rogerhalstead.com

Thanks for the good feedback based on experience.

But I have a few questions/comments ---

1) We replaced the flap actuator assembly this November (last
replacement was ~400 hours ago), so I'm sensitive to breaking it.

In 1300 hours I've had no problems and IF the airframe log is
correct it's still original.

2) There is no POH for the '47. There is an "Owner's Manual" that
looks like something you used to get with a new Ford. There is scant
data on takeoff and landing configurations, only speeds.

3) How do you know you have 15 degrees of flaps? Sure you can "Compare
to aileron travel" to get an idea on the ground, but you cannot be
that precise in flight.

Lay a straight edge on the top of the wing. Lower the flaps while
measuring the change with a protractor. Using a straight edge and
felt marker, place the appropriate marks on the leading edge of the
flap on the pilot's side. You'll soon find you can count one
thousandone, one thousand two...etch and come out within a couple of
degrees.


4) I don't know what you mean by "Why trim after each flap change? You
aren't flying a Cessna". I find (as expected) that after each Power/
Attitude/Configuration change, there's a subsequent trim adjustment --
in any airplane.

Not in the Bo. In the ones I've flown you can go from no to basically
full (40 degrees) with no trim change required. HOWEVER when slowing
down substantial trim changes are required with airspeed changes, so
if there is an airspeed change coupled with the flap change then yes
retrimming is required. Normally I find no need to change trim on
down wind (unless slowing from a fast entry) and base. On final, I
know I was flying the right speeds for the loading if the trim ends up
against the up stop.


5) 80 MPH on final seems fast, when 1.3 Vso = 62 MPH (flaps down,
power off stall speed = 47 MPH). I target 65 on short final and
usually land and stop within 1500'.

The older ones are much lighter and can be flown slower., I think I
mentioned that. With mine stall in the landing configuration is 63 at
gross which works out to about 80 MPH on final. With just me and half
fuel it's about 75 to 76 MPH. That ends up with land and roll out of
about 1200 feet and little if any use of the brakes. With short field
technique it'll easily stop in 800 or less (IF the pilot is up-to-date
and proficientg). That also results in a steep final with
substantial power. Power out landings are faster at 90 MPH and take
considerably more runway.

Gross is 2950 or 3100# when the tip tanks are full.


Dan




Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Dan wrote:

I'm no longer in a standard pattern, and so the full flaps come later
-- probably on final. The question remains -- why not full flaps
instead of incremental flaps?


I suppose I could pop out all of the flaps at once, but as I said above, I
base it on what the traffic (ahead and behind) is doing. Traffic ahead is
generally slowing down in increments, so I use my flaps to do the same. For
following traffic I don't want to slow down too early in the pattern. There
are a lot of students and they tend to start crowding my tail if I do.

On those rare occasions when the pattern ahead is empty, I do drop full
flaps abeam and make a tight pattern.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

--
Message posted via AviationKB.com
http://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forums...ation/200803/1

On Mar 6, 1:10 pm, Roger wrote:

In 1300 hours I've had no problems and IF the airframe log is
correct it's still original.

Is the flap actuator/motor the same in a Deb as a '47 V tail?


Not in the Bo. In the ones I've flown you can go from no to basically
full (40 degrees) with no trim change required. HOWEVER when slowing
down substantial trim changes are required with airspeed changes, so
if there is an airspeed change coupled with the flap change then yes
retrimming is required. Normally I find no need to change trim on
down wind (unless slowing from a fast entry) and base. On final, I
know I was flying the right speeds for the loading if the trim ends up
against the up stop.



OK, that explains it. When I apply full flaps, I'm also pitching and
trimming to attain my turn to base speed of 70 MPH in the '47 V, and
80 KIAS in the A36.

5) 80 MPH on final seems fast, when 1.3 Vso = 62 MPH (flaps down,
power off stall speed = 47 MPH). I target 65 on short final and
usually land and stop within 1500'.

The older ones are much lighter and can be flown slower., I think I
mentioned that. With mine stall in the landing configuration is 63 at
gross which works out to about 80 MPH on final. With just me and half
fuel it's about 75 to 76 MPH. That ends up with land and roll out of
about 1200 feet and little if any use of the brakes. With short field
technique it'll easily stop in 800 or less (IF the pilot is up-to-date
and proficientg). That also results in a steep final with
substantial power. Power out landings are faster at 90 MPH and take
considerably more runway.


Right -- the '47 V is very light, and bounces like a cork in the
smallest breeze. The A36, however, is like an airliner -- it grosses
at 3780 with full tip tanks.

My 1500' figure is 50' obstacle clearance -- not ground roll. I'm
guessing I'm at about 800' ground roll with heavy braking, but I
rarely need to do that.

Thanks for the feedback! I like to disagree if the contrary opinion
can be explained rationally. I'm more than happy to have my mind
changed if my knowledge/skills improve!

Dan

On Thu, 6 Mar 2008 15:21:37 -0800 (PST), Dan
wrote:

On Mar 6, 1:10 pm, Roger wrote:

In 1300 hours I've had no problems and IF the airframe log is
correct it's still original.

Is the flap actuator/motor the same in a Deb as a '47 V tail?

According to my manual the actuator motor assembly is 35-080109 for
both models, BUT and I emphasize that BUT in capital letters I have
found the occasional discrepancy in those shop manuals. One, with
which I am intimately familiar is the routing of the Throttle, prop,
and mixture controls which were replaced (died of old age) so although
my manual lists it as the same, "like anything on the web" I'd take
that with a grain of salt:-)) I'd really expect better from Beech
though.

Like the old 35s the switch is a momentary one, but unlike you guys
flying the "expensive planes", with the "piano key switches, my
economy class Deb only has a momentary toggle switch with a handle
shaped like a flap.:-))



Not in the Bo. In the ones I've flown you can go from no to basically
full (40 degrees) with no trim change required. HOWEVER when slowing
down substantial trim changes are required with airspeed changes, so
if there is an airspeed change coupled with the flap change then yes
retrimming is required. Normally I find no need to change trim on
down wind (unless slowing from a fast entry) and base. On final, I
know I was flying the right speeds for the loading if the trim ends up
against the up stop.

The early Debs (a V35 with a conventional tail grafted on - Designator
is 35-33) had a very coarse manual trim with the trim wheel hidden up
behind the panel. There's a white stripe painted on the panel to show
you where you should reach to try to find it:-)) OTOH there is no
mistaking it, but less than half an inch travel can shove you right
down in the seats or leave *things* floating around the cabin. It is
coarse in the extreme. They fixed that in the first year or early on
into the second. At 5'7" my eyes are just peaking over the edge of
the glare shield when adjusting the trim. That makes the adjustment
from 120 on the ILS at DH to landing speed ... interesting. Tis a
good thing they slow quickly, but that means some major trim changes
in just a few seconds.

However, after well over a 1000 hours I just automatically reach for
it any time I find myself holding forward or aft pressure on the yoke.
Even coming down final I find myself retrimming with out conscious
thought as the Deb slows.




OK, that explains it. When I apply full flaps, I'm also pitching and
trimming to attain my turn to base speed of 70 MPH in the '47 V, and
80 KIAS in the A36.

5) 80 MPH on final seems fast, when 1.3 Vso = 62 MPH (flaps down,
power off stall speed = 47 MPH). I target 65 on short final and
usually land and stop within 1500'.

The older ones are much lighter and can be flown slower., I think I
mentioned that. With mine stall in the landing configuration is 63 at
gross which works out to about 80 MPH on final. With just me and half

Book figures for short field landing are still better than a lot of
172s though.

fuel it's about 75 to 76 MPH. That ends up with land and roll out of
about 1200 feet and little if any use of the brakes. With short field
technique it'll easily stop in 800 or less (IF the pilot is up-to-date
and proficientg). That also results in a steep final with
substantial power. Power out landings are faster at 90 MPH and take
considerably more runway.


Right -- the '47 V is very light, and bounces like a cork in the
smallest breeze. The A36, however, is like an airliner -- it grosses
at 3780 with full tip tanks.

The Deb and F-33 is in between and a joy to fly even in weather. OTOH
if flying in IMC an autopilot is almost a necessity for the workload.
It may have a big wing light loading at 17# (give or take change),
but it's slipperier than snot on a doorknob.

I've never had a chance to fly one of the later F-33s after the 40%
increase in useful load. Mine has the 260 HP IO-470N STC with the big
3-blade Hartzell prop, gap seals, 1/2" thick speed sloped windshield,
and tip tanks. http://www.rogerhalstead.com/833R/833R_frame.htm That
prop made a tremendous difference in energy management.

My 1500' figure is 50' obstacle clearance -- not ground roll. I'm
guessing I'm at about 800' ground roll with heavy braking, but I
rarely need to do that.

The heavier weight, a slow, steep descent and lots of power will yield
between 800-1200 over that 50 footer on a cool day with a light head
wind, but that's with lots of practice. I'm no where near that
proficient at present.


Thanks for the feedback! I like to disagree if the contrary opinion
can be explained rationally. I'm more than happy to have my mind
changed if my knowledge/skills improve!

Dan
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com