Why would an RAF pilot become a USAAC co-pilot?

Subject: Why would an RAF pilot become a USAAC co-pilot?
From: "Kevin Brooks"
Date: 2/9/04 5:26 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Why would an RAF pilot become a USAAC co-pilot?
From: "Ed Majden"
Date: 2/9/04 10:58 AM Pacifi

Most wanted to
be pilots but the greater majority ended up as Navs, Air Gunners,
Wireless
Operators and Bomb aimers eventually assigned to No. 6 Bomber Group
(R.C.A.F.).
Ed



Makes no difference what you wanted to be. You were assigned where you
were
needed.

Yep, for the most part (though I do know one WWII vet who, upon finding out
his entire aviation cadet class was being cancelled and the newly enlisted
members being reassigned to other duties, flatly refused to train as a radio
operator--and got his assignment to gunnery school that he was willing to
take). Kind of strange to hear you admit that, though--wasn't that long ago
you were claiming that all of those who wanted to engage in direct combat
operations could do so, regardless of what the "needs of the service" were.

Brooks



Arthur Kramer


Nobody got out of combat duty. Maybe you were on a track for fighters but
suddenky you were transferred to mullti engine transitional because the 100th
bomb group was taking heavy losses and B-17 pilots were needed. Or in my
classification group at San Antonio aviation cadet center all 400 in my class
were all classified as Bombardiers because of the heavy death toll among
bombardiers over europe. But no one that I ever heard of was re-assigned to
non combat duty once they had volunteered for AAC. If you want to fight, the
AAC would be glad to accomodate you. If you don't want to fight, you don't
volunteer for the AAC.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Subject: Why would an RAF pilot become a USAAC co-pilot?
From: (Eunometic)
Date: 2/9/04 5:55 PM Pacific

The US daylight bombers required a co-pilot for the physically and
mentally fatiquing task of close formation flying upon which their
defensive boxes were based.

Exactly 100% correct.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

In article ,
(ArtKramr) wrote:

Subject: Why would an RAF pilot become a USAAC co-pilot?
From: (Eunometic)
Date: 2/9/04 5:55 PM Pacific

The US daylight bombers required a co-pilot for the physically and
mentally fatiquing task of close formation flying upon which their
defensive boxes were based.

Exactly 100% correct.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer


In Ambrose Bearse's book "Wild Blue" about Sen. McGovern's B-24 piloting
experience in the Med in WWII, McGovern seemed to me to be rather clear
on the point that his Co-pilot was an adaquate co-pilot but was never in
his mind aircraft commander material. Don't know if he considered him
to be fighter pilot material or was more of the opinion that the guy was
too immature. I vaguely remember that there might have been some latent
desire to fly fighters and some carried resentment for not being allowed
to.

In a situation like that, someone who carries that kind of resentment
could quickly become a sore spot in an aircrew. Wannabes make poor team
members. Aircrew positions in that ware were NOT career paths. A
successful career in the AAC at that point was any which did not end in
a telegram to one's parents. Art, did you ever consider staying in for
20 or 30 years? Is suspect that the crews you knew were almost entirely
focussed on killing the freak in Berlin as a terminal career objective.

--
Dana Miller

Subject: Why would an RAF pilot become a USAAC co-pilot?
From: Dana Miller
Date: 2/9/04 7:36 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

In article ,
(ArtKramr) wrote:

Subject: Why would an RAF pilot become a USAAC co-pilot?
From: (Eunometic)
Date: 2/9/04 5:55 PM Pacific

The US daylight bombers required a co-pilot for the physically and
mentally fatiquing task of close formation flying upon which their
defensive boxes were based.

Exactly 100% correct.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer


In Ambrose Bearse's book "Wild Blue" about Sen. McGovern's B-24 piloting
experience in the Med in WWII, McGovern seemed to me to be rather clear
on the point that his Co-pilot was an adaquate co-pilot but was never in
his mind aircraft commander material. Don't know if he considered him
to be fighter pilot material or was more of the opinion that the guy was
too immature. I vaguely remember that there might have been some latent
desire to fly fighters and some carried resentment for not being allowed
to.

In a situation like that, someone who carries that kind of resentment
could quickly become a sore spot in an aircrew. Wannabes make poor team
members. Aircrew positions in that ware were NOT career paths. A
successful career in the AAC at that point was any which did not end in
a telegram to one's parents. Art, did you ever consider staying in for
20 or 30 years? Is suspect that the crews you knew were almost entirely
focussed on killing the freak in Berlin as a terminal career objective.

--
Dana Miller


When our co-pilot Bob Monson (Boston) joind us he had never flown a B-26
Marauder before. He was literally trained to the job by Paul (Lake Charles
LA) But he sure was a wiz on the radio compass. They were both on the controls
while in formation. I would hear Paul endlessly saying, " C'mon Bob. help me on
the rudders" When we were on final, Paul's legs were shaking with tension and
exhaustion and it would take both Paul and Bob on the brakes to bring "Willie"
to a stop. But after the war when they gave us A-26 Douglas Invaders Bob moved
into the left seat and he and I put in a lot of hours in A-26's in Army of
Occupation duties in Germany. You might be interested in reading "Bob's Story"
on my website for an intimate view of how members of the same crew shared and
bonded. Bob passed away some years ago but I think of him often.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Why would an RAF pilot become a USAAC co-pilot?
From: "Kevin Brooks"
Date: 2/9/04 5:26 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Why would an RAF pilot become a USAAC co-pilot?
From: "Ed Majden"
Date: 2/9/04 10:58 AM Pacifi

Most wanted to
be pilots but the greater majority ended up as Navs, Air Gunners,
Wireless
Operators and Bomb aimers eventually assigned to No. 6 Bomber Group
(R.C.A.F.).
Ed



Makes no difference what you wanted to be. You were assigned where you
were
needed.

Yep, for the most part (though I do know one WWII vet who, upon finding
out
his entire aviation cadet class was being cancelled and the newly
enlisted
members being reassigned to other duties, flatly refused to train as a
radio
operator--and got his assignment to gunnery school that he was willing to
take). Kind of strange to hear you admit that, though--wasn't that long
ago
you were claiming that all of those who wanted to engage in direct combat
operations could do so, regardless of what the "needs of the service"
were.

Brooks



Arthur Kramer


Nobody got out of combat duty. Maybe you were on a track for fighters but
suddenky you were transferred to mullti engine transitional because the
100th
bomb group was taking heavy losses and B-17 pilots were needed. Or in my
classification group at San Antonio aviation cadet center all 400 in my
class
were all classified as Bombardiers because of the heavy death toll among
bombardiers over europe. But no one that I ever heard of was re-assigned
to
non combat duty once they had volunteered for AAC. If you want to fight,
the
AAC would be glad to accomodate you. If you don't want to fight, you don't
volunteer for the AAC.

But you have repeatedly told us how all of those maintenance guys, mess
personnel, armorers, etc., don't meet your criteria for having served in
combat. They were all also in the USAAF (I believe the AAC designation was
dropped while you were still in training, if not beforehand).

Brooks


Arthur Kramer

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Why would an RAF pilot become a USAAC co-pilot?
From: (Eunometic)
Date: 2/9/04 5:55 PM Pacific

The US daylight bombers required a co-pilot for the physically and
mentally fatiquing task of close formation flying upon which their
defensive boxes were based.

Exactly 100% correct.

Gee, how did those A-20's in the Bomb Squadrons ever manage then, being as
they all had only one pilot?

Brooks



Arthur Kramer

Subject: Why would an RAF pilot become a USAAC co-pilot?
From: "Kevin Brooks"
Date: 2/9/04 8:11 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Why would an RAF pilot become a USAAC co-pilot?
From: "Kevin Brooks"
Date: 2/9/04 5:26 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Why would an RAF pilot become a USAAC co-pilot?
From: "Ed Majden"
Date: 2/9/04 10:58 AM Pacifi

Most wanted to
be pilots but the greater majority ended up as Navs, Air Gunners,
Wireless
Operators and Bomb aimers eventually assigned to No. 6 Bomber Group
(R.C.A.F.).
Ed



Makes no difference what you wanted to be. You were assigned where you
were
needed.

Yep, for the most part (though I do know one WWII vet who, upon finding
out
his entire aviation cadet class was being cancelled and the newly
enlisted
members being reassigned to other duties, flatly refused to train as a
radio
operator--and got his assignment to gunnery school that he was willing to
take). Kind of strange to hear you admit that, though--wasn't that long
ago
you were claiming that all of those who wanted to engage in direct combat
operations could do so, regardless of what the "needs of the service"
were.

Brooks



Arthur Kramer


Nobody got out of combat duty. Maybe you were on a track for fighters but
suddenky you were transferred to mullti engine transitional because the
100th
bomb group was taking heavy losses and B-17 pilots were needed. Or in my
classification group at San Antonio aviation cadet center all 400 in my
class
were all classified as Bombardiers because of the heavy death toll among
bombardiers over europe. But no one that I ever heard of was re-assigned
to
non combat duty once they had volunteered for AAC. If you want to fight,
the
AAC would be glad to accomodate you. If you don't want to fight, you don't
volunteer for the AAC.

But you have repeatedly told us how all of those maintenance guys, mess
personnel, armorers, etc., don't meet your criteria for having served in
combat. They were all also in the USAAF (I believe the AAC designation was
dropped while you were still in training, if not beforehand).

Brooks


Arthur Kramer




Those of us who flew together were one group Those that stayed on the ground
were another group. And that is the way it was.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Why would an RAF pilot become a USAAC co-pilot?
From: "Kevin Brooks"
Date: 2/9/04 8:11 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Why would an RAF pilot become a USAAC co-pilot?
From: "Kevin Brooks"
Date: 2/9/04 5:26 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Why would an RAF pilot become a USAAC co-pilot?
From: "Ed Majden"
Date: 2/9/04 10:58 AM Pacifi

Most wanted to
be pilots but the greater majority ended up as Navs, Air Gunners,
Wireless
Operators and Bomb aimers eventually assigned to No. 6 Bomber Group
(R.C.A.F.).
Ed



Makes no difference what you wanted to be. You were assigned where
you
were
needed.

Yep, for the most part (though I do know one WWII vet who, upon
finding
out
his entire aviation cadet class was being cancelled and the newly
enlisted
members being reassigned to other duties, flatly refused to train as a
radio
operator--and got his assignment to gunnery school that he was willing
to
take). Kind of strange to hear you admit that, though--wasn't that
long
ago
you were claiming that all of those who wanted to engage in direct
combat
operations could do so, regardless of what the "needs of the service"
were.

Brooks



Arthur Kramer


Nobody got out of combat duty. Maybe you were on a track for fighters
but
suddenky you were transferred to mullti engine transitional because
the
100th
bomb group was taking heavy losses and B-17 pilots were needed. Or in
my
classification group at San Antonio aviation cadet center all 400 in my
class
were all classified as Bombardiers because of the heavy death toll
among
bombardiers over europe. But no one that I ever heard of was
re-assigned
to
non combat duty once they had volunteered for AAC. If you want to
fight,
the
AAC would be glad to accomodate you. If you don't want to fight, you
don't
volunteer for the AAC.

But you have repeatedly told us how all of those maintenance guys, mess
personnel, armorers, etc., don't meet your criteria for having served in
combat. They were all also in the USAAF (I believe the AAC designation
was
dropped while you were still in training, if not beforehand).

Brooks


Arthur Kramer




Those of us who flew together were one group Those that stayed on the
ground
were another group. And that is the way it was.

So now you are backing off your assertion that "But no one that I ever heard
of was re-assigned to
non combat duty once they had volunteered for AAC... If you don't want to
fight, you don't volunteer for the AAC"? Or are you saying that those vital
armorers (without whom you would never have dropped your first bomb), etc.,
were not members of the USAAF (which you mislabled as "AAC")? And *none* of
those ground crew guys had hoped/tried to get into gunnery school, or radio
school, etc., but were told, "Sorry, we need armorers, so that is what you
will be"?

Brooks



Arthur Kramer

Subject: Why would an RAF pilot become a USAAC co-pilot?
From: "Kevin Brooks"
Date: 2/9/04 9:11 PM Pacific

re not members of the USAAF (which you mislabled as "AAC")? And *none* of
those ground crew guys had hoped/tried to get into gunnery school, or radio
school, etc., but were told, "Sorry, we need armorers, so that is what you
will be"?

There are armorer gunners, radio gunners and engineer gunners. We had all three
on Marauders.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Why would an RAF pilot become a USAAC co-pilot?
From: "Kevin Brooks"
Date: 2/9/04 9:11 PM Pacific

re not members of the USAAF (which you mislabled as "AAC")? And *none* of
those ground crew guys had hoped/tried to get into gunnery school, or
radio
school, etc., but were told, "Sorry, we need armorers, so that is what
you
will be"?

There are armorer gunners, radio gunners and engineer gunners. We had all
three
on Marauders.


Nice sidestep. Your refusal to answer the questions posed is noted.

Brooks


Arthur Kramer